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Super-8 total costs in 2018


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#41 Samuel Berger

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 02:23 PM

Just for reference:

 

Vision3 Stock $25

Develop $18

2K HDR Xena scan $25

 

$68 total for a cartridge.

 

How about for 4K scan?

 

Nice of you to drop by, I'm actually packaging some carts to send your way right now. I didn't see Dropbox as an option in the form, only hard drive, but I know you do send to Dropbox, so can I just add it in the comments box? Thanks.


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#42 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 02:30 PM

4K scan on Xena HDR is $50


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#43 Samuel Berger

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 02:56 PM

4K scan on Xena HDR is $50

 

How much data does it generate per cart? I need to know so I know whether dropbox is enough, or if I should send an external hard drive. Thanks.


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#44 Chris Burke

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 04:02 PM

29.84 gigs for ProRes4444

 

170.83 for 10 bit DPX

 

 

 

only an estimate


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#45 Ted Keaton III

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 07:59 AM

Considering we are at the two or three year mark for release/availability of the new camera, I have an idea.

Being a longtime, huge fan of Kodak, I feel more than qualified to offer a small amount of advice to Kodak Development.

 

Here goes... please listen close...

Shut up and get to work.

 

Dear lord Development... I have a question... what the hell are you doing?

If any of you had an administration or superior that truly cared for you... you would have been fired many years ago. 

Enthusiastic talk of new film stock offerings, new cameras, and a new processing center must stop. I'm embarrassed for you.

 

Kodak, take the advice of a friend, Let's "put our crypto-currencies where our mouth is" and actually produce something.


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#46 Patrick Cooper

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 02:24 AM

 

Also, using the camera to automatically select lens type, shutter speed, f stop and ISO, isn't really 'teaching' you much about the technical aspects of filmmaking. 

 

With my Canon 1014E, I select the aperture manually, and I also have the option of adjusting the shutter speed also. I very rarely use auto exposure on super 8. There have also been occasions where Ive used my 35mm SLR's internal meter to take light readings for the super 8 camera.


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#47 Will Montgomery

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 10:24 AM

Just for reference:

 

Vision3 Stock $25

Develop $18

2K HDR Xena scan $25

 

$68 total for a cartridge.

 

If you're making money at this price point then there is hope for the future.  :)


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#48 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 01:21 PM

I think it's still all too expensive.  That is why 8mm and Super 8mm formats have always been a do it yourself film format.  I recommend each enthusiast to do as much as they can for themselves to keep costs down.  I mean, the cost of scanning should be in the $5 per 50ft range, processing in the $12 to $18 range, and film costs, well, that we can't control since it's the manufacturer.  However, a person processing film themselves and scanning it in, could realistically get the cost per 50ft cartridge under $35 each, that is film, processing and scanning....if doing the latter two themselves.  At the very least, cut the scanning cost by doing that yourself if uncomfortable with attempting processing.   Those of us who still primarily project, well, it's lower cost, however, we also need to consider digitizing all our films as a pristine backup.  Duplicating films is also possible, but costlier unless doing that yourself also via a synchronized refilming (optical print duplication) which can be done.  Just some musings of mine on this topic, since I have always tried to keep it affordable (on the cheap) for myself since I was 13 years old.


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#49 Samuel Berger

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 01:32 PM

I think it's still all too expensive.  That is why 8mm and Super 8mm formats have always been a do it yourself film format.  I recommend each enthusiast to do as much as they can for themselves to keep costs down.  I mean, the cost of scanning should be in the $5 per 50ft range, processing in the $12 to $18 range, and film costs, well, that we can't control since it's the manufacturer.  However, a person processing film themselves and scanning it in, could realistically get the cost per 50ft cartridge under $35 each, that is film, processing and scanning....if doing the latter two themselves.  At the very least, cut the scanning cost by doing that yourself if uncomfortable with attempting processing.   Those of us who still primarily project, well, it's lower cost, however, we also need to consider digitizing all our films as a pristine backup.  Duplicating films is also possible, but costlier unless doing that yourself also via a synchronized refilming (optical print duplication) which can be done.  Just some musings of mine on this topic, since I have always tried to keep it affordable (on the cheap) for myself since I was 13 years old.

 

What I would like to see is a hack and modification for the Wolverine to allow scanning at 4k and 24fps. There is currently a software limitation to it that keeps the generated MP4 at 30fps and the scan is not even true HD that I can tell.

Modifying those $300 machines would ensure that future scans for backup purposes cost nothing.

 

Even as things are, the price of cartridges is too high. I look forward to the day when a hobbyist investor will do what it takes to create a slitter/perforator and start selling carts at $8.99 again. Empty carts from Kodak can be purchased at $3 dollars each, it's in their catalogue.

 

Paul Cotto was working on such a machine, but I think he lost interest.


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#50 Alessandro Malfatti

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 11:52 AM

Super 8 has become expensive as hell, but I guess that's what happens with such niche markets. Nowadays I'm paying per roll 35€+17.50€ developing at Andec+15€ telecine + shipping. That's 67.50 plus shipping which comes to about 10-20€ more per order. That's quite a price alright. However I'll say that it's still noticeably cheaper than 16mm, which would be 50€ + 25€ developing + 30€ telecine, comes to 105€ plus shipping, and shipping will be more expensive because of more weight. That's almost twice as expensive. Within the expensive world of film, Super 8 still has the price advantage.

 

I for one don't much care for the enthusiast aspect of Super 8. I mean, I get that some people look for that, and that's cool, but I don't, I just want to shoot on film, whatever format it may be. If I shat money I'd shoot on 65mm ffs. For now Super 8 is the most economic, so it makes sense. If prices were to keep going up I'd might consider exclusively using 16mm, since I recently got me a Scoopic, which is much comfier than the old K3. There is the issue about the weight and size of Super 8 gear vs 16mm, but it's mostly the price for me.


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#51 Will Montgomery

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 04:42 PM

I have a closet full of 8mm, Super 8 and 16mm (and a little 35mm). I'm so glad I shot 16mm of the kids when they were little...huge difference from the Super 8...which I still love...but that 16mm just looks amazing 15 years later scanned in 4k.


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#52 Samuel Berger

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 05:06 PM

Ektachrome is going to make a huge difference for me personally for two reasons: I'm one of those who prefer to project, and also I can edit on a Goko editor and then choose what I really want scanned, thereby decreasing the overall cost as I don't have to scan everything.

 

I don't even know if I'm going to shoot all that negative Super 8 in my freezer. I'm thinking probably not unless it's for sporting events that the upcoming 100D can't handle.

 

On the other hand I have enough Tri-X Super 8 and 16mm to last me the rest of the year, as well as some Orwo and Fomapan I keep meaning to test.  So there's lots of choices.


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#53 Daniel Askelad

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:36 PM

Cinelab have just improved their rates, just a little bit. They do $20 process + $15 1k / $20 1080p / $30 2k.

Well, actually it used to be $18 a cart. but the scan side of things has come down from what I remember - they were wanting like a $150 minimum scan I think.

PS, please tell me where you get cartridges at $25! From ebay I get B&W at $26+p&p, but that's the cheapest I've found. Colour seems to be generally like $5 more...


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#54 Nick Collingwood

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 08:25 PM

Cinelab have just improved their rates, just a little bit. They do $20 process + $15 1k / $20 1080p / $30 2k.

Well, actually it used to be $18 a cart. but the scan side of things has come down from what I remember - they were wanting like a $150 minimum scan I think.

PS, please tell me where you get cartridges at $25! From ebay I get B&W at $26+p&p, but that's the cheapest I've found. Colour seems to be generally like $5 more...

 

Oh man. My friend! That news is quite the opposite. And a bummer (getting used to the feeling with Super 8 prices). They used to be $15 for processing like a year or so ago... if not $18 per roll just a month ago. I think I just got charged $19/roll for the 3 rolls I sent them last week.

 

And the scanning is actually more expensive. Used to be .30/ft for one light 1080p ($15/cart) and then .34c/ft for best light 1080p ($17.50/cart). Then .50c/ft for 2K scans ($25/cart).

 

Shame. Prices keep creeping up on all fronts (stock, processing, scanning)... Making it more difficult. I just don't know where Super 8 is headed with these prices. Really wish something would actually go DOWN in price (a la Polaroid Originals dropping their price per pack last year) to encourage more shooting.

 

 

BUTTTTTTT I'm just now seeing that CineLab will start processing color reversal!! That's awesome! Amazing! I was having to send my color reversal to Spectra which is pricier or to Dwayne's (which is a mere $12/roll or $14/roll with prep) but the extra cost and hassle of sending it to another lab is eliminated if sending it all to CineLab! Hooray! I'll be sending some Provia 100D and some Ektachrome 64T to them the moment I return from my trip to the west coast!


Edited by Nick Collingwood, 22 May 2018 - 08:39 PM.

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#55 Daniel Askelad

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Posted 22 May 2018 - 09:45 PM

 

Oh man. My friend! That news is quite the opposite. And a bummer (getting used to the feeling with Super 8 prices). They used to be $15 for processing like a year or so ago... if not $18 per roll just a month ago. I think I just got charged $19/roll for the 3 rolls I sent them last week.

 

Yeah, I kind of realised as I was typing. BUT, the good thing is that they do it per cartridge now, so - although it may cost more overall - you don't need to send in like a minimum amount. 


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#56 Gareth Blackstock

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 09:27 PM

When I got into super8 I looked into getting more out of film, more resolution, but 16mm cameras back then were still quite expensive, I could shoot quite a few short films to completion for the price of one camera. There were cheaper cameras, but the super8 cameras had comparatively better lenses, and, if super8 is exposed well, shot on a tripod, and transferred well, it is simply stunning on the smaller screen.
And when you think about it, big screen film making is no longer the ultimate goal for film makers, the small screen, ie computer monitor, seems to be the exhibition medium for the future, so 35mm or 16mm resolution is no longer the most sought after originating format for small screen. Modern transfer facilities are finally capturing the magic that a projectionist See's, and modern affordable software is assisting the amateur film maker to do high quality post work.
Super8 enables the film maker huge amounts of freedom, to take a shot, and keep moving, chuck in a cart and keep shooting, no reliance on a big crew with all the inherent delays.
As always, the small formats are showing the way back to where film making started, creativity without being constrained by staffing issues, producers, budgets, lighting, set design, talent releases, focus pullers, boom operators, dolly warmers, wheel greasers, electrical cord straighteners, and catering.
Point, shoot, print, enjoy.
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#57 Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 10:43 AM

Kodak killed the hobbyist the moment they killed kodachrome. The whole hobbyist movement revolved around getting a positive image out of the camera roll for projection, so currently there isn't a hobby super 8 format unless you use outdated stocks. When Ektachrome is finally available to the public, we can have this hobby conversation a bit better.


Trouble with Ektacrhome is it will fade. I've got Kodacrhome films from the late 30's and 40's that are fine.
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#58 Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 10:50 AM

What I would like to see is a hack and modification for the Wolverine to allow scanning at 4k and 24fps. There is currently a software limitation to it that keeps the generated MP4 at 30fps and the scan is not even true HD that I can tell.
Modifying those $300 machines would ensure that future scans for backup purposes cost nothing.
 
Even as things are, the price of cartridges is too high. I look forward to the day when a hobbyist investor will do what it takes to create a slitter/perforator and start selling carts at $8.99 again. Empty carts from Kodak can be purchased at $3 dollars each, it's in their catalogue.
 
Paul Cotto was working on such a machine, but I think he lost interest.


I had 2 Wolverines. Both died after short use. The IQ is poor with them. Here is a vintage 8mm scanned on a Wolverine.

nsfw



Here is a high-res scan of a 8mm student film I made in the 1970's about a transsexual recreating the act she / he did on the carnival girlie shows. Although this film has noise reduction, big difference in IQ from the Wolverine

nsfw

https://archive.org/...s/GoneUpInSmoke

...Epson needs to make decent and affordable 8 and 16mm scanner.

Edited by Daniel D. Teoli Jr., 24 June 2018 - 11:00 AM.

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#59 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 05:32 PM

Current pricing:

 

Develop with scan in house $18 for ECN, Tri-X or (soon) E6 this has been about the price for quite a few years from us for processing, I don't remember the last time we charged $15 but it was a while ago. Also we will always build a package price for volume.

 

We charge $22 for process only... because staying in business......

 

For scans we are now doing all S8mm scans on the 4K Xena HDR scanner we just charge differently for resolution.

 

1080P $20

2K $28

3K overscan $35

4K $50 (I may knock this down to $45)

 

I think this is competitive with what scan only houses are doing and in line with what processing is, plus I eliminated minimums on 8mm so one cart costs just the develop and scan cost plus shipping and we are offering Dropbox and Google drive (and sometimes We Transfer but it has problems) for no cost up to about four or five carts.

 

I am looking at getting a 8mm gate for the scan station which will allow the 1K resolution scans at $12 or so.

 

I have been trying to balance the need for staying in business with offering top quality service at a reasonable price. Everyone who works at Cinelab is a film enthusiast except Billco who went to business school... alas none of us are getting rich quick but there is a donut shop a block away from us that sells allot of Lotto tickets so we still have hope of owning that Lambo and a Yacht.

 

I think if you take a look at the scans from the Xena now with the new Sony Pregius sensor they are as sharp as Scan Station but without the hilite noise from the JAI cmos sensor.


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#60 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 05:38 PM

Must admit I've only skimmed this thread but are we seriously discussing scanning Super-8 to 4K DPX?


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