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#41 Mitch Gross

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 10:27 AM

There are systems that allow for ZERO compression, both in editing and storage. The Dalsa uses a form of Mathematically Lossless Compression, which to me is the goal of the only kind of compression to accept. The Kinetta uses no compression and stores all of its data RAW. "Mild" compression is still, well, compression.
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#42 adrianwhite

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 10:02 AM

Only just joined this forum, based in the UK. I have the same dream of a low cost HD system as many others. I'm not nearly as technically savvy as you guys as I'm a writer first and foremost. Jesus, some of you guys sound like engineers! I've been following the new developments very closely, including kinetta, sony POV, JVC etc. over in the UK we're limited to the sony hdw750p, the sdx900, imx, cinealta. All are either too expensive or do not provide enough quality.

Last week I rang a guy called Steve Nordhausen who works for silicon imaging. Within 8-12 weeks time a new camera will arrive! Here is the spec so far, forgive me if they are not detailed enough.

SI-1920 HD camera. 1920*1080 3.2 megapixel at 24fps poss 23.976 as well. Single cmos chip. Will stream to computer (PC) poss USB2 connection altough serial ata configuration was hinted at.
Frame grabber software will be required. Apparently 10bit and 12bit solutions are available. Images will be uncompressed. Frame grabber will be required along with another piece of software which I'm still a bit hazy on. Ready for the best bit? Camera will be approx $4000!
Frame grabber $1500. Camera will apparently be compatible with 16mm bolex or sneider lenses along with others. Steve mentioned that a press release would be availble close to release which may be July!

I would appreciate hearing what you guys think about this. Personally I don't think it's vapourware as they already have a 6.6megapixel camera that does the same but at different frame rates. Look forward to hearing from you guys.
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#43 Mark Allen

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 02:14 PM

It sounds promising - what chip are they using?

Personally I think portability will be a huge concern though - so the ability for it to run off batteries and capure directly to a portable device would be a requirement for most (but not all uses and cinematographers). While this would surely add to the price, I think it's almost a requisite for most people's needs. (Not all though.)

How would people here go about making something like this portable if it doesn't come with a solution?
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#44 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 02:31 PM

Hi,

Care to elaborate on how they're getting uncompressed 1920x1080 at 10 bit down a 480Mbit/sec USB-2 link? Good trick. The better trick would be storing it, given PCI bus limitations.

The Kinetta solution is much better. To be able to mount hard disks natively is massively useful, since it saves you carrying (and powering) an entire computer. There's a lot of subtle issues with formatting and filetypes, though.

Phil
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#45 J Jukuzami

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 09:32 PM

I posted info about the camera in a new thread; then I noticed this one.

The guy says he "thinks" it is USB-2. Of course it can't be.

Of course the Kinetta is a better solution, but when we look at the cost, then the new camera is a super buy. Sure you'll need to drag a computer with you. Well, on a movie production you drag along so much styff, one computer is nothing, if your budget is limited and you can't afford the Kinetta.

Actually I would like to see a new low cost camera with HD SDI interface and Nikon 35 mm SLR mount. You plug the thing into BoxxTechnologies.com RT $23,000 computer with included Prospect HD and get 32 hours of 1080p 4:2:2 recording. For $30K you have a production and postproduction solution with sufficient image quality to be shown on a big theater screen.
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#46 J Jukuzami

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Posted 23 May 2004 - 11:54 PM

Not having an integrated recorder is not that big of a deal:
1. Sony F950 does not have it and it costs $110K.
2. You can run HD SDI link coax for 200'.
3. The Kinetta RAID drive can probably be used on this camera.
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#47 Mitch Gross

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 08:55 AM

I'll believe it when I see it. Knowing the developemnet process, issues and costs that other manufacturers are going through, I am highly dubious.
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#48 Sam Wells

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 09:40 AM

Actually I would like to see a new low cost camera with HD SDI interface and Nikon 35 mm SLR mount. You plug the thing into BoxxTechnologies.com RT $23,000 computer with included Prospect HD and get 32 hours of 1080p 4:2:2 recording. For $30K you have a production and postproduction solution with sufficient image quality to be shown on a big theater screen.

You've got to be kidding.

This isn't a real world of production solution for anyone I know.

-Sam
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#49 J Jukuzami

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 10:20 AM

You've got to be kidding.

This isn't a real world of production solution for anyone I know.

-Sam


Maybe not for you. For that cost most you can get is DV as of now, not even SD. So basically you can stay with your real world of production solution that is 480/60i, 4:1:1; I'll take the 1080/24p, 4:2:2 at the same cost anytime. To each his own. We all have our preferences. One likes the Blair Witch look; most would pass.


Mitch

I'll believe it when I see it. Knowing the developemnet process, issues and costs that other manufacturers are going through, I am highly dubious.


We'll see; the Kinetta is quite complicated with many features. The cameras being developed take existing components and just put them together.
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#50 Sam Wells

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 10:43 AM

You've got to be kidding.

This isn't a real world of production solution for anyone I know.

-Sam


Maybe not for you. For that cost most you can get is DV as of now, not even SD. So basically you can stay with your real world of production solution that is 480/60i, 4:1:1; I'll take the 1080/24p, 4:2:2 at the same cost anytime. To each his own. We all have our preferences. One likes the Blair Witch look; most would pass.


Mitch

I'll believe it when I see it. Knowing the developemnet process, issues and costs that other manufacturers are going through, I am highly dubious.


We'll see; the Kinetta is quite complicated with many features. The cameras being developed take existing components and just put them together.

Sorry I was talking about getting professional quality work done in the real world.

Skip it. Whatever.

-Sam
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#51 Mitch Gross

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 10:54 AM

We'll see; the Kinetta is quite complicated with many features. The cameras being developed take existing components and just put them together.

Nothing is ever so easy. Try taking some existing auto parts, put them together and see if they magically run in unison without issues. Even better yet, try it on commercially available computer software and hardware components. For anyone who has ever pulled their hair out trying to install some new board or driver, you get my drift.

There's a world of issues involved in getting this stuff to work, and especially to getting that camera to work right. Motion pictures is a lot more than 24 consecutive still frames every second. I'd be interested to see what the Bayer filtering on a stills camera looks like when you stack the frames one after another in realtime HD res. Companies spend thousands of hours and millions of dollars developing and dealing with this stuff. If it was so easy then it would have been done long ago.
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#52 richard mellor

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 11:23 AM

kinetta
Hi everyone -

I think we are the future of image acquisition! The new modular camera will allow us the lenses of our choice, the chips of our choice (CCD, CMOS), raw capture, and eventual output to the codec of our choice.

All this with repair and upgrade similar to a PC.

This is a link to what that camera will look like: http://www.kinetta.com/home.php.
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#53 J Jukuzami

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Posted 24 May 2004 - 12:32 PM

You may be right Mitch. We'll see. I corresponded with one of the manufacturers. They were developing the uncompressed HD camera already and wanted input on what lens mount and interface to use. I told them Nikon 35 mm mount and HD SDI interface. They claimed to have engineering team with hundreds of years of optical experience, plus many times larger electronics development team. They said 3-4 months to finish their development. They may be wrong. We'll see.
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#54 Justin Barham

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 08:54 PM

Any news here? I thought more Kinetta information would be trickling out by now.
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#55 Jason Rodriguez

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Posted 22 June 2004 - 05:39 AM

I heard that there'll be more news on the website mid-summer, so maybe around the middle of July/August. Last I heard they're shooting for a shipping date sometime in the fall, so probably October, November.

The Altasens chip they're planning to use isn't even shipping yet commercially.

I did hear something about beta units in late summer though. Sounded interesting to me.
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#56 Mike Brennan

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 05:26 PM

Kinetta's 90 minutes 444 in a box could have appications for other cameras...
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#57 Justin Barham

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Posted 23 June 2004 - 09:47 PM

I heard that there'll be more news on the website mid-summer, so maybe around the middle of July/August. Last I heard they're shooting for a shipping date sometime in the fall, so probably October, November.

The Altasens chip they're planning to use isn't even shipping yet commercially.

I did hear something about beta units in late summer though. Sounded interesting to me.

Thanks Jason. I'll be anxiously awaiting further news.
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#58 Mark Allen

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 02:20 AM

So - it's still a few months before the Kinetta and other cameras of this nature are released. I'd like to know the basic production process will be - or perhaps more accurately, if my assumption is correct.

Here is my assumption:

Once shot - you have uncompressed RAW data - you probably dump that data onto cheaper drives to clear off your "mag" for more shooting the next day.

Once on cheaper storage, you convert the entire movies to an editble format using After Effects (I'm not sure Apple's Compressor will handle RAW, I'm doubtng it). Then you do your edit with these 'proxies'.

Once finished, you are going to want to assemble your edit. I'm thinking using something like Automatic duck from Final Cut into After Effects would be the trick. Then you are able to work with your RAW files in AE and time them as you need them - or get them close at least before making them RGB again.

Then do a large render for further color correction or final lay off.

For visual effects, the shots would be pulled as needed in a similar manner.


Now, the ohter other alternative I see is to color time the RAW footage into an appoximate range the first time and have them as editable FCP files right out of the conversion.


Is this in line with what others are thinking for these uncompressed formats?

(BTW Kinetta updated their site, but only with a few more articles.)
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#59 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 07:36 AM

Hi,

I'm not sure the specifics are really that important; if it comes out as a DPX file, you can stick it through something as simple as nconvert (See Red Hat Linux) which will import and export more or less anything; downsize or downcolour it to the best format your gear will handle, and go from there.

Cinelerra (also see Linux) is a free NLE which will handle high bit-depth images.

Phil
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#60 Mark Allen

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Posted 04 July 2004 - 12:16 PM

I'm not sure the specifics are really that important;

Hi Phil -

I'm not sure a post production supervisor would agree with you. Certainly if you're thinking of shooting a feature in this format, before you end up with 900 minutes of raw images, it would be a good idea to have a specific idea of what you're going to do with all that footage.

Let me rephrase my querry, though, to address what is really the heart of my question.

Can you really just throw it into a converter and expect top quality conversion?

It's my understanding that the advantage of shooting RAW is the increast bit depth. When you are converting to what most editing systems can edit in real time, you are going to have to sacrifice that bit depth. Once you convert, are you losing the advantage of the RAW format - or is it like film transfered to HD where despite the current medium, because the capturing medium was higher, you retain smooth gradients. How much will this depend on your color timing of the RAW footage?

As for Cienerela - I do not believe there is any hardware which would let you edit RAW movies live despite the softwares ability to handle it.
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