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"New" super-8 camera to market


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#421 Matt Stevens

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:46 AM

Wow. You guys sure do get technical.  :blink:

 

For me all I can say is that after using at least a dozen Super8 cameras my all time favorite is the R10. It was so stupendous in low light conditions that I would make love to it in thanks if I could.  :P  I had to sell my first R10 a while back to pay a bill and boy was that a mistake. I ended up buying a mint, serviced Canon 1014 XL-S and while I love it, no doubt it goes soft below 2.8 (especially at 1.4) and because it's not built like a tank (the R10 is) I have to be very very very careful with all of those damned plastic knobs. 

 

I'll have mine serviced shortly and will ask about having the internal filter removed and the in camera fades, dissolves disabled. 


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#422 Heikki Repo

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:05 AM

A bit OT (or metadiscussion), but ... the good thing about heated conversations is that they show that there are people interested in super-8. Lasse and Tommy haven't sold any cameras yet but apparently they have already been able to energize people and renew interest in this format! ;)

 

Good times for super-8: Vision3 50D, Logmar camera, new Ferrania starting film coating... Now we'd only need some nice compact and affordable machine for doing contact prints from these negs to super-8 positive film with automatic optical audio recording on print from digital files -- and having print film in super-8 available without the large minimum order. Then even those who aren't interested in digital projecting could have the benefits of both this camera sound recording and the look of Vision3 filmstocks! :)


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#423 Tom Chabbat

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:06 AM

 

 

When the cartridge is removed from the camera mid-roll, the strong spring pushes the plate forward to pinch the film firmly and forms a tight light seal to prevent film fogging.

Now we're talking ! Nice to have you here M. Seguin !

 

So now, we can all see that the pressure pad effectively push the film a little outside the cartridge when removed, preventing effectively fogging. All of you can see that when you insert the cartridge in the camera, the camera's film gate protrudes INSIDE the cartridge. So the pressure pad effectively rests against when aligned. Now, if you want your film to run freely between this pad and the film guides of the camera's gate, you must have another set of guides, wider than the already mentioned gate's film guides so the pad can rest on them without perturbing the film. Or, when I look to a super 8, I only see film guides, on which the film really rest since their path goes through the pull down claw.

 

I'll try to make a drawing later so everyone can see clearly.


Edited by Tom Chabbat, 25 November 2013 - 10:07 AM.

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#424 Erkan Umut

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:07 AM

And the Matt's film comes to the end with many applauses!

 

Long live Matt!

 

I wish Nikon would release more cameras in that line or further models like having the Beaulieu and Leicina's latest features. Unfortunately they have stopped making the movie cameras. The R series made for serious amateur filmakers in mind that time. I wish I could have a Nikon R1X (there is no such model) with a folding handgrip and changeable lens system like ZC1000 has...

 

But humans were wishing to carry lightweight items beginning at the middle of 80s, that's why Canon replied with those plastics... Of course, Canon has tanks as well... :)


Edited by Erkan Umut, 25 November 2013 - 10:10 AM.

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#425 Marc Marti

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:09 AM

Wow, a good technical read, for sure! I can only explain my own experiences on the "pressure plate" discussion:

 

Some years ago, when I was doing telecine, I was always surprised with the BIG difference in quality between the 8mm and the super-8 footage.

Sure, the K25 stock used in 8mm was the best reversal emulsion ever (specially compared with K40), but the images where so sharp and stable compared with the super-8 ones... 

And I'm talking about super-8 footage shot with new cameras in the 70's, and 8mm filmed with average cameras and lenses...

 

In the meantime, I owned lots of cameras: Nizos, Bauers, Canons, Leicina... I can't speak about the Leicina because it broke very soon and 5 years later is still on repair, but all those cameras gave irregular results. The best one was the Zeiss Moviflex GS-8, but it can't be repaired anywhere (if you know a place, please let me know).

 

Someday, I tried a Fujica Z800. Wow! What a difference!! Amazing registration and sharpness. I sold my super-8 cameras and never looked back. Now I use also a Fujica ZC-1000 with prime lenses and it's the sharpest footage I've ever seen in 8mm...

 

But what I was actually going to say is:

 

LET THOSE BELLS RING!! A NEW SUPER-8 CAMERA IS ON THE MARKET!!!

 

And it incorporates all the things we have been wanting in a new camera and it's not overpriced! 

Over-enginereed? Please, give me a break! Can't we just ENJOY and CELEBRATE this moment?

 

This is the best super-8 news in LOTS OF YEARS!!


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#426 Matt Stevens

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:13 AM

And the Matt's film comes to the end with many applauses!

 

Long live Matt!

 

I wish Nikon would release more cameras in that line or further models like having the Beaulieu and Leicina's latest features. Unfortunately they have stopped making the movie cameras. The R series made for serious amateur filmakers in mind that time. I wish I could have a Nikon R1X (there is no such model) with a folding handgrip and changeable lens system like ZC1000 has...

 

No doubt my one complaint about the R10 is the fixed hand grips and stupid battery holder. So many people lost the battery holder over the years. Lots of perfectly fine R10's ended up thrown away because the holder was gone and the owners decided not to sell the camera itself thinking it was useless.  :(


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#427 Erkan Umut

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

When you run the camera very first time after you've dropped the film in, lateral guides and claw engage film in seconds. That's why it is recommended to rotate the cartridge's take-up spindle forward direction until it stops prior to drop in.


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#428 Erkan Umut

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:36 AM

 

No doubt my one complaint about the R10 is the fixed hand grips and stupid battery holder. So many people lost the battery holder over the years. Lots of perfectly fine R10's ended up thrown away because the holder was gone and the owners decided not to sell the camera itself thinking it was useless.  :(

 

Matt, I did not give the battery holder when I sold my disassembled R8 I told before, because its exactly the same with the R10's. Recently, I did a bench running for all my stuff (regularly I do). I have seen that the camera is not working. Then I replaced the holder, and it worked. I cleaned the contacts of the problematic one, now it seems to be OK, too. Probably a corrosion causes this despite I never leave batteries.

 

The replaceable battery holders help a lot when a battery leakage arises.


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#429 Tom Chabbat

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:45 AM

ekwa.png

Here's a quick drawing I made. I hope it'll help a better understanding of the design.

 

In figure 1, our pressure pad is pushing the film towards the chamber opening, thus preventing fogging as said. The arrow represent action of the spring.

 

Fig. 2 : When inserted, the cameras gate, protruding inside the chamber, push back the film and with it the pressure pad. The film is resting against its film guide to reduce friction during pull down.

 

Fig. 3 : How the film gate should look if it permitted the film to run freely. The pressure pad should rest on wider guides than those we actually observe.

 

I gave you a little bonus to see the action of side clips on film.

 

M. Seguin, I think your confusion came in the misinterpretation of the role of the film guides. If they were designed to push the pad away from the film, there would have been wider. Or you can see that they're actually in the path of the pull down claw. As the claw engages in the film perforations, those guide are then situated where those perforations are. So the film effectively rests against those guides, maintained on its back by the pressure pad.


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#430 Friedemann Wachsmuth

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:24 AM

Tom, sorry for the troll comment, but it feels just unreal if so many tangible and verifyable facts are simply ignored.I just made a little video for you. You can reproduce this test yourself easily.

Here is the pressure plate of a Kodak Cartridge, freshly extracted for you:

2013-11-25%20at%2017.11.png

Here I am extracting a film gate from a Frankenstein Canon 310xl just for you:

https://dl.dropboxus...25 at 17.13.png

This shows the two parts before forming a film channel:

2013-11-25%20at%2017.16.png

Note you can actually SEE the film channel when pressing them together:

2013-11-25%20at%2017.15.png

And finally here you can see that the film runs "free" through it. Note the swiss spring scale in the second scene and see how free "free" is. It needs less than 5 cN to pull the film through even though my finger's pressure was much higher than that from the cartridge spring:

I hope we can finally close this discussion down now once and forever. The pressure pad is NOT a pressure plate and does not work the same way a pressure plate does. Period.

 

(Imagine Queen's "Under Pressure" as Soundtrack underneath the video, please)


Edited by Friedemann Wachsmuth, 25 November 2013 - 11:27 AM.

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#431 Jean-Louis Seguin

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:34 AM

To add to Friedemann's excellent demonstration, I would like to suggest you look over this excellent article by the great Francis Williams in Movie Magazine Magazine (1979) which explains well the interaction between the cartridge and the film camera gate:

 

https://docs.google....GZUSDExN2M/edit

 

Jean-Louis


Edited by Jean-Louis Seguin, 25 November 2013 - 11:37 AM.

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#432 Friedemann Wachsmuth

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:38 AM

That link "requires permission", Jean-Louis...


Edited by Friedemann Wachsmuth, 25 November 2013 - 11:38 AM.

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#433 Jean-Louis Seguin

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:50 AM

Sorry about that:

 

https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

 

Jean-Louis


Edited by Jean-Louis Seguin, 25 November 2013 - 11:52 AM.

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#434 Friedemann Wachsmuth

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:57 AM

Excellent article. Thanks for sharing this!


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#435 Tom Chabbat

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:34 PM

I see what you mean. My bad, I must admit I did not saw those little elevated parts. At last I can see some serious facts ! But still, film should not move this freely, the little support you show shouldn't exceed this much the film's thickness. What you show here is a very low tolerance plastic molded gate. No wonder film will have "breathing" problem. Now, make the same experiment with a Beaulieu gate. You will notice that with tight tolerance, well machined metal gates, the film won't move this freely. Actually, I just measured the difference of thickness between the film guides and the pad resting support, it's only 0.14mm, the exact thickness of acetate based color film.  So, on these camera, the pressure pad will play his role, ensuring film does not deviate in depth from film plane with,thanks to those little supports you showed me, the less friction possible. This is certainly why the sharpest super 8 test results are with Beaulieu cameras. So, my point still is that if you are within the right tolerances, everything should work fine.

 

And if you still want a "true" pressure plate, you can do a little grinding like suggested on the article, it should do the trick !


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#436 Tom Chabbat

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:40 PM

Oh, and I forgot to say... Film isn't totally free even with bigger tolerance ! As explained in the wonderful article Jean Louis provided us, the film's natural curl provides the necessary friction to stay in place. Again, it validates what I was saying : the smaller the format, the easier it is to achieve the wanted function. So when you say the film should move freely, it's again a big NO ! If it does, the film would always be blurry...


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#437 Erkan Umut

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:04 PM

Some dimensions will follow...


Edited by Erkan Umut, 25 November 2013 - 01:06 PM.

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#438 Erkan Umut

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:09 PM

hcwp.jpg


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#439 Tom Chabbat

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:40 PM

Thanks Erkan ! This topic really is becoming interesting !

 

What I learned from Jean Louis article is really new to me, I had never seen this simple explication anywhere before ! I didn't suspect film could use its curling tendency to hold himself in place during exposure. Thank you deeply again Jean Louis !

 

I think that the lesson of the day is that we need to share more serious information !


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#440 Friedemann Wachsmuth

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:41 PM

I'd suggest to let this thread return to the Logmar Camera s topic. 

Posting specs (and wild assumptions about specs) should get its own thread. 


Edited by Friedemann Wachsmuth, 25 November 2013 - 01:43 PM.

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