Jump to content


Photo

A question on Star Trek TMP


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7496 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 08 February 2018 - 02:25 PM

Hey All.

I've been thinking a bunch recently about going back to shoot some film stuff for music videos. I'm lucky I know a few performers who, while I'll be working for little to no money, are willing to invest a bit and play around visually. At present, I'm thinking about 35mm, probably 3 -perf and some Dry for Wet work. But beyond that, I was curious about bringing out this effect:

 

https://youtu.be/mvDma4sG8Vg?t=106

 

There may have been a time when I looked up how to do this; but honestly at present i'm coming up pretty short on the how; so I put it to you all; how did they do all this photochemically? Beyond just camera necessities, also what was done in the printing process?

 

Any help would be much appreciated as always.


  • 0

#2 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 12318 posts
  • Other

Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:05 PM

Looks to me like an optical printer effect where they're doing scaling and translation on the image and printing it over a few subsequent frames. Could be simulated in modern compositing software.


  • 0

#3 KH Martin

KH Martin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 263 posts
  • Other
  • Portland, Oregon

Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:16 PM

will take many paragraphs just to break it down, will try to do something tomorrow a.m.


  • 0

#4 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 20300 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:25 PM

I'll dig up my Cinefex issue. I do recall some of the light streaks had to be added since they "originate" from sources beyond the edge of the frame.


  • 1

#5 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 20300 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:45 PM

Douglas Trumbull, Cinefex #1, pg.28:

 

"It was done on a horizontal camera stand with 35mm film projected from behind onto a little RP (rear-projection) screen. They isolated the parts they wanted to have streaked -- faces and lights, primarily -- by making individual rotoscope masks that would reveal only those parts. Then, as each masked image was projected onto the RP screen, the camera would move relative to it with the shutter open and record it as a blur.  The idea was they're caught up in this wormhole effect and you're seeing a distortion of time and space on the bridge -- everything's started to stretch out.  Since the blurs keep changing and undulating during the shots, they had to use a computer to control all the motions. It was an extremely complicated process -- each different streak in a given shot would require a separate pass -- and it took them about seven months to complete the whole sequence. Then they went back and had all the streaks optically superimposed over the live-action footage they'd started from originally."

 

He said that this sequence had been started already by Bob Swarthe working for Robert Abel's company before they were replaced by Trumbul's, but since it was so complicated and being done with 35mm equipment and Trumbull was geared to work in 65mm, he let him finish the sequence at Abel's.


  • 0

#6 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 20300 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:53 PM

There is a much more detailed description in Cinefex #11 (interview with Robert Swarthe), over a page long which I'm not going to retype.  But it does mention that the steppy quality to the streak was an accident of the system, the motion controlled camera took a moment to begin its move, causing a hot spot in the streak due to the build up in exposure in that frame.


  • 0

#7 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7496 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:06 PM

Nice thank you David et. Al I'm going to go out and track down the Cinefex mag and give it a good read over. I'd like to work this all photochemically this go 'round, though it does sound quite a bit involved, I think it'll be worth it.


  • 0

#8 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 20300 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:20 PM

I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone who could do this work on an optical printer.  Let alone find a rear projection screen attached to an Oxberry animation stand set-up.

 

It wouldn't be the same, but a variation would be to mistime a shutter on film camera and shoot everything with a 90 degree tilt to so the streaks move horizontally instead of vertically (you'll have to crop and rotate in post, so ideally shoot on a 4-perf 35mm camera rather than a widescreen format.)


  • 0

#9 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7496 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 09 February 2018 - 08:49 AM

What I"m thinking is not to do it on an optical printer-- but maybe work with a DSLR in post for this specific sequence (as well as cardboard cut outs).

 

Basically the idea is from the film original once scanned Print out transparencies of each frame needed (perhaps every other frame)  (and granted I'm thinking a few seconds worth here, not the long sequence) and throw them onto a light-box with everything masked out minus the "light areas" I want to streak, and then utilizing a stills camera in bulb mode attached to a slider-type thing to do a long exposure, hand moved, to get the streaks, then composite them. I think you're right and photochemical won't work, which is kinda sad :(

Most of those whole idea comes out of me rambling to a good friend of mine about how sad it is these techniques are dying, and wanting to try them before they're gone.


  • 0

#10 Samuel Berger

Samuel Berger
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1229 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Seattle

Posted 09 February 2018 - 04:17 PM

Man, Tsuburaya Eiji took a lot of SFX secrets to his grave.


  • 0

#11 Tyler Purcell

Tyler Purcell
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4295 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 09 February 2018 - 06:44 PM

Hey Adrian, if you need a small 3 perf camera... you know who to call! I owe you! :D


  • 0

#12 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7496 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 10 February 2018 - 10:27 AM

You know it Tyler.


  • 0

#13 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 12318 posts
  • Other

Posted 10 February 2018 - 12:34 PM

Well, that was quite a lot more complicated than I thought it was.


  • 0

#14 Gregg MacPherson

Gregg MacPherson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1973 posts
  • Other
  • New Zealand

Posted 11 February 2018 - 01:06 AM

What I"m thinking is not to do it on an optical printer-- but maybe work with a DSLR in post for this specific sequence (as well as cardboard cut outs).

 

Basically the idea is from the film original once scanned Print out transparencies of each frame needed (perhaps every other frame)  (and granted I'm thinking a few seconds worth here, not the long sequence) and throw them onto a light-box with everything masked out minus the "light areas" I want to streak, and then utilizing a stills camera in bulb mode attached to a slider-type thing to do a long exposure, hand moved, to get the streaks, then composite them. I think you're right and photochemical won't work, which is kinda sad :(

Most of those whole idea comes out of me rambling to a good friend of mine about how sad it is these techniques are dying, and wanting to try them before they're gone.

If you can use motion control for each frame so that the streak from each frame looks the same, you might get a look a bit like that Star Trek clip.  But I suppose if you went freehand with the camera movement it would look a bit more wrigley and anarchic (yay!)


  • 0

#15 Adrian Sierkowski

Adrian Sierkowski
  • Sustaining Members
  • 7496 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, Ca

Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:02 AM

I'm thinking it'll be one of those hand-crank DSLR sliders-- so not' 100% the same; but close-ish-ness.


  • 0

#16 Timothy Fransky

Timothy Fransky
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts
  • Other
  • Belleville, Ontario, Canada

Posted 03 October 2018 - 05:44 PM

Those original ILM teams were wizards. I love practical effects. The level of creativity involved is palpable.
  • 0

#17 KH Martin

KH Martin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 263 posts
  • Other
  • Portland, Oregon

Posted 03 October 2018 - 06:47 PM

Those original ILM teams were wizards. I love practical effects. The level of creativity involved is palpable.

Not to be persnickety, but ILM didn't do TMP, though future ILMer Scott Farrar did shoot some of it (for Trumbull's team under Dave Stewart), as did former ILMer Doug Smith (the latter working for Dykstra at Apogee.) And yeah, they were all geniuses! Again, if you want to drown in TMP VFX tech, just read the last half of the monstrously thick RETURN TO TOMORROW book on the making of TMP ... put that together with Cinefex and AmCin coverage and you're probably about as close to knowing most of what and how they did things as you're going to get.


  • 0

#18 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 20300 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 03 October 2018 - 07:10 PM

The vfx were done by Douglas Trumbull (Future General / Entertainment Effects Group) and he split the work with John Dykstra (Apogee).


  • 0

#19 Timothy Fransky

Timothy Fransky
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 124 posts
  • Other
  • Belleville, Ontario, Canada

Posted 04 October 2018 - 10:45 AM

Not to be persnickety, but ILM didn't do TMP, though future ILMer Scott Farrar did shoot some of it (for Trumbull's team under Dave Stewart), as did former ILMer Doug Smith (the latter working for Dykstra at Apogee.) And yeah, they were all geniuses! Again, if you want to drown in TMP VFX tech, just read the last half of the monstrously thick RETURN TO TOMORROW book on the making of TMP ... put that together with Cinefex and AmCin coverage and you're probably about as close to knowing most of what and how they did things as you're going to get.

 

Ah yes, ILM didn't get involved till Wrath of Khan. And I thought I was Trekkie.

 

I'm particularly fascinated by the miniature work. The Enterprise in that film is probably the most convincing miniature I've seen. This includes 2001, the Star Wars saga, and the more recent CGI Trek films/tv series.

 

On the other hand, it would be difficult to make that model "fly" as effectively as the ships in the mentioned films and tv. A big model like that can't roll, bank, or accelerate as freely as a CG model.

 

Clearly I've thought a good deal about this, lol! If I could wish myself into the director's chair on a ST film, I'd want to see the gravitas of TMP Enterprise coupled with the agility/nimbleness of the more recent ships. But I'm hijacking now. Apologies for geeking out.


  • 0

#20 Mark Dunn

Mark Dunn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2810 posts
  • Other
  • London

Posted 04 October 2018 - 10:58 AM

 


 

On the other hand, it would be difficult to make that model "fly" as effectively as the ships in the mentioned films and tv. A big model like that can't roll, bank, or accelerate as freely as a CG model.

The model doesn't, much. The camera does.


  • 0


Aerial Filmworks

Ritter Battery

New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment

Technodolly

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Rig Wheels Passport

Tai Audio

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

CineLab

Willys Widgets

Glidecam

CineTape

Metropolis Post

rebotnix Technologies

The Slider

rebotnix Technologies

Rig Wheels Passport

New Pro Video - New and Used Equipment

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

Broadcast Solutions Inc

The Slider

Wooden Camera

CineLab

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Glidecam

CineTape

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

Willys Widgets

Paralinx LLC