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Vistavision workflow?


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#41 Glen Alexander

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 11:50 PM

Have you built this unit? What is your VV resolution Height and Width? What is your scan time per frame? DIYers are always interested to hear about other's achievements.


Yes, I built it.

Resolution is 78 lp/mm,

Full VV frame size is 24mm x 38mm scanned at 4000 dpi, 16-bit linear per color. I could do normal scan at 20 sec per frame, a calibration frame is 45 sec per frame.

Calibration did a full reset and quality check on gain, focus, etc. or when it detected a scene change.

For DIYers, don't let any professional tell you it can't be done. I got sick and tired of hearing that BS. Anything is possible, you must have an iron will never give, keep going. A positive act of will can accomplish anything.
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#42 Glen Alexander

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 12:09 AM

You posted:

And now you post:

So what happened? Have you become one of the naysayers? Why the change of heart regarding digital post?


It's the damn commercialization of the industry towards cheap production values. I'm 'too poor to buy a VV projector and ship one to the festivals. If I had Indian financing like Spielberg, I would. There is nothing like seeing or realky experiencing VV projected.

I will put some of my images up against any professional cinematographer here or anywhere.

People have asked me for prints to put on their wall next to images of Ansel Adams, my images are overwhelming, powerful emotional frames.

I have and prefer that people who watch my filn are emotionally movedi rather than some big name like my lighting. My work is art n
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#43 Tim Carroll

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 08:43 AM

It's the damn commercialization of the industry towards cheap production values. I'm 'too poor to buy a VV projector and ship one to the festivals. If I had Indian financing like Spielberg, I would. There is nothing like seeing or realky experiencing VV projected.

I will put some of my images up against any professional cinematographer here or anywhere.

People have asked me for prints to put on their wall next to images of Ansel Adams, my images are overwhelming, powerful emotional frames.

I have and prefer that people who watch my filn are emotionally movedi rather than some big name like my lighting. My work is art n


Glen,

Do you think, if you tried, you could come across as a bigger horse's backside.

Best,
-Tim
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#44 Thomas James

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 02:31 PM

I think with the masive proliferation of thousands of digital 4K projectors that will be installed in many theatres there will be a real need for superior aquisition formats such as Vista Vision and 65mm film because I do not think regular 35mm film will provide enough resolution to be able to hold up to 4K digital projection although regular 35mm film would be okay for a 2K digital projector.
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#45 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 03:01 PM

I think with the masive proliferation of thousands of digital 4K projectors that will be installed in many theatres there will be a real need for superior aquisition formats such as Vista Vision and 65mm film because I do not think regular 35mm film will provide enough resolution to be able to hold up to 4K digital projection although regular 35mm film would be okay for a 2K digital projector.


35mm anamorphic productions always looked much more impressive when blown up and projected on 70mm, so why shouldn't they look great projected on 4k?
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#46 Thomas James

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 03:27 PM

Conventional 35mm film projection only resolves to the equivalent of 720p so of course blowing it up to 70mm film or even 2K digital projection will be a significant improvement. However the maximum resolution of 35mm is only about 3K so there will not be that much difference between 2K or 4K digital projection with regular 35mm film origination. Also 65mm film is a much finer grain pattern so that the resolution potential with 4K digital projection will be unmasked because fine detail will not be obscured by course grain patterns.
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#47 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 03:35 PM

I would say the resolution of 35mm negative, in my own experience, seeing/hearing and testing, is well above 3K and can benefit from up to 'round a 6K scan for a 4K downconverstion. Take that for what you will, but 35mm will still look brilliant at 4K if it's been posted properly to 4K (e.g. actually scanning @4 as opposed to just up converting a 2K)
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#48 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 06:18 PM

Also 65mm film is a much finer grain pattern so that the resolution potential with 4K digital projection will be unmasked because fine detail will not be obscured by course grain patterns.


The grain on modern 35mm isn't that course, even the 500T stocks aren't that bad. I'd assume for 4k projection you'd be scanning without generation drops anyway.
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#49 Glen Alexander

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 07:05 PM

film stock is stock whateve the speed. VV, 65mm, at 500 have the same size grain. when you have a much bigger negative then you downsize the frame, you are oversampling the frame, ie super-resolution, especially at 16-bit linear sample

for my next film i'm going with either Fuji Velvia 50 or 100, since Kodak stopped Kodachrome.

the next step for me blu-ray codecs, most suck or don't support full 16-bits per color, the most is 10-bit log, which is an approximation. also there are good and bad players, some only support 30-35Mbs where the spec is ~ 55Mbs. So I'm going to hack my own codec and use the blu-ray as a storage container and saturate the bus.


for 4k projectors, jpeg2000 seems to be the weakest link.
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#50 Glen Alexander

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 07:09 PM

Glen,

Do you think, if you tried, you could come across as a bigger horse's backside.

Best,
-Tim


Do you feel you could be one of the most unenlightened people to have existed?

I back up what I say. Go back to your mediocre, average world and leave the artists and pioneers alone.
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#51 Justin Hayward

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 09:27 PM

People have asked me for prints to put on their wall next to images of Ansel Adams, my images are overwhelming, powerful emotional frames.
I have and prefer that people who watch my filn are emotionally movedi rather than some big name like my lighting. My work is art n


I tried looking at your website, but it’s not supported by windows or something. I don’t know. I certainly thought the stills on your website looked good. Can we see the film somewhere?

What festivals will it be playing in?

Thanks,
Justin
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#52 Justin Hayward

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Posted 29 November 2009 - 09:45 PM

I ask about the festivals cause you mentioned something about them, not because I was being sarcastic... if it comes off that way.

Thanks again,
Justin
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#53 Henri Titchen

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 08:20 PM

Glenn,

Could you please post some photos.

If they are difficult to upload you can put them on Flickr of Photobucket etc.

I'd like to copy your success.

Thanks From,
H.

Of course I know Vince. Call the sales dept and ask for Rik, get a quote for DI scanning. The best they could do is $0.50 per frame. Which would have cost about $25,000.

This is not for the feint of heart.

You need to be a Matlab, Labview, and C/C++ guru.
I built my own hardware and wrote software to scan it myself at 78 lp/mm for about $1400USD.

here's what you need
Nikon scanner
Motor with an encoder
2 or 4 gang 35mm film gang
Labview
Nikon SDK
MS compiler

Write code that interfaces to scanner, calibrates, scans image. It will take about 3 weeks at 24x7 to scan 50,000 frames of VV with quality control.

For processing full 16-bit uncompressed images, color correction, image stabilization, etc.

Matlab

When the cash flow is more positive, I intend to buy two or three VV cameras and I'll modify them for a Leica mount for my next film, a feature.


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#54 Glen Alexander

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:35 PM

Glenn,

Could you please post some photos.

If they are difficult to upload you can put them on Flickr of Photobucket etc.

I'd like to copy your success.

Thanks From,
H.

Salut Henri,

Send me a PM with your address and I''ll send you an NTSC DVD, I don't have PAL.

Etes-vous francaise?
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#55 Paul Bruening

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 01:49 PM

Hello Glen,

I've been thinking about your scan rig and am impressed by your achievement. I was unaware that the Nikon unit could scan at around 4,000 dpi in as little as 20 seconds. Could your system scan 4 techniscope frames at a time and parse the frames accurately? If so, it would be more efficient for me to put in one of your systems at each of my workstations than to continue with my current Bayer pattern rig.
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#56 Glen Alexander

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 03:31 PM

Hello Glen,

I've been thinking about your scan rig and am impressed by your achievement. I was unaware that the Nikon unit could scan at around 4,000 dpi in as little as 20 seconds. Could your system scan 4 techniscope frames at a time and parse the frames accurately? If so, it would be more efficient for me to put in one of your systems at each of my workstations than to continue with my current Bayer pattern rig.



Hi Paul,

The 20 sec/frame scan time is for VV, 8-perf, 24 x 38mm is a normal frame, i.e., no calibration. It takes 45 sec/frame for a calibration frame, check on focus, gain etc. Some of the labs now are getting close to real-time scanning at 4k but nowhere near real-time for 6k.

Yes, it is trivial to parse the frames afterwards. I wrote code that does image stabilization and align images to sub-pixel resolution. I can align by geometry, perfs or by an object or boundary inside the frame if there is a camera stabilization issue. The VV camera I used had 3 pin alignment but there were issues with the fluid head not being so fluid.
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#57 Paul Bruening

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 05:54 PM

What's the duty cycle (lifespan in scans) on the Nikon units?
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#58 Tom Jensen

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:26 PM

It's the damn commercialization of the industry towards cheap production values. I'm 'too poor to buy a VV projector and ship one to the festivals. If I had Indian financing like Spielberg, I would. There is nothing like seeing or realky experiencing VV projected.

I will put some of my images up against any professional cinematographer here or anywhere.

People have asked me for prints to put on their wall next to images of Ansel Adams, my images are overwhelming, powerful emotional frames.

I have and prefer that people who watch my filn are emotionally movedi rather than some big name like my lighting. My work is art n



Do you feel you could be one of the most unenlightened people to have existed?

I back up what I say. Go back to your mediocre, average world and leave the artists and pioneers alone.



OK Tru**(obscenity removed)**, you started this tread over a year and a half ago so I'm calling you out. So far we haven't seen frame one of your brilliant art film so if you want to match frames against any cinematographer here or anywhere, now's the time to do it. Either put up or shut up. Let's see your "art." Show us what you have so we can all go back to our mediocre, average world and leave you artists and pioneers alone. I've seen a lot of movies, both commercial and art films. If I learned anything about the pioneers, they are the guys face down in the mud with the arrows in their backs. Time to back up what you say. Because from where I sit, I see a delusional wannabe with a silly little web site with nothing on it and an IMDB entry with even less. You have one credit and it's for your film that you probably haven't even started. You have one actress and I don't see Christian Bale anywhere. You think your journey of self discovery is unique? It's been done over and over and over, http://www.textweek....ies/journey.htm You have the audacity to question other members of this forum and their veracity. I've put millions of feet of film through almost every kind of camera in existence including Vista Vision. Millions of feet of film. Not a 100' of a test reel. I've worked with some of the greatest actors in the world a few of which have Oscars sitting on their mantles. So do yourself a favor, sit back, shut your mouth and open your ears so you might learn something. You are certainly in no position to teach anybody anything. If you can't do that, you should just go away.

Edited by Tom Jensen, 14 December 2009 - 06:29 PM.

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#59 David Rakoczy

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 06:38 PM

Amen Tom!
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#60 Thomas James

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 08:11 PM

Unfortunately I think that Glen Alexander may be right. Although it may be true that commercialization or stingy producers may not hold back an artist from shooting higher quality formats such as Vista Vision or 65mm if the artist insists on shooting in that format the problem is that in todays tough economic climate there is just too much downward pressure to contain costs for the serious consideration of these higher quality formats. The fact is that we are in a recession and tough sacrifices have to be made.

During the last depression of the 1930's there was the same problem shooting with color film. Although the technology existed so that every film in the 1930's could have been shot using color film it was never seriously considered because the 3 strip techniclor process effectively tripled both the acquisition and the delivery cost. However when I saw the Blu-Ray release of the 1939 movie 'The Wizard of Oz' in 1080p high definition the realization was made that there was no way that this movie could have been shot using the conventional black and white cinematography of the time despite the enormous costs of 35mm color production at that time.
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