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Sound on negative


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#1 Luigi Castellitto

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Posted 07 September 2018 - 11:03 AM

Do you know cases in the professional and non professional cinema of sound track application directly on the original negative? Magnetic sound, optical, etc., in 16mm, 35mm, etc.


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#2 Michael Carter

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Posted 07 September 2018 - 12:37 PM

Auricon Pro 600 Variable Area Optical Sound on Film

Edited by Michael Carter, 07 September 2018 - 12:40 PM.

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#3 Simon Wyss

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 01:39 AM

Was done extensively since the pioneers

 

Main thing is that simple unsensitized emulsions and image stocks have a brutal speed fall-off with increasingly short exposure times, Schwarzschild curve. The higher frequencies are lost. Therefore, special ultra short time films were developed called sound recording stocks. These typically react linearly in speed down to, say, 1/80,000 s. The property got transferred to image negative films for electronic flash photography. Sound recording films have some 10 to 12 ISO, are ortho or panchro and of very fine grain. Finer grain means less hiss. Higher speed image films produce a noisy sound.

 

COMMAG sound in camera is dead because prestriped films are no longer manufactured. You had a number of cameras in the time, RCA, Berndt-Bach Auricon, Arriflex 16 BL, Cinema Products 16, Beaulieu 16 News, Bolex 16 Pro. COMMAG was useful for television, sound was in synch and didn’t need further attention except during editing where the image-sound displacement would have to be taken into account. When everything worked well sound quality was good.


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#4 Simon Wyss

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 06:13 AM

The Debrie SINMOR was a COMMAG camera, too. Ugly beast


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#5 Luigi Castellitto

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 03:26 PM

I knew the Auricon, I did not remember the others. The Sinmor is a beautiful piece of artillery!
Interesting the COMMAG technology!
 
And were there cases in which the negative sound was impressed not directly with the camera but after shooting?  
I know that it may not make sense, but maybe there may have been some cases in which it was preferred to apply the sound and synchronize it on the negative for reasons of archive and not for not lose it with the positive copies distributed.

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#6 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 05:29 PM

They make a sound neg in the lab using the final mix (it used to be sep mag, but the last times I did it this was on DAT and the next time a CD/DVD), which is combined with the print.


Edited by Brian Drysdale, 09 September 2018 - 05:29 PM.

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#7 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:48 PM

I personally would love a digital mono scratch track on film cameras. This would allow syncing of the set audio to go much smoother. It's unfortunate nobody developed a system. :(
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#8 Luigi Castellitto

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 05:59 PM

A mono track for sync would actually be useful!

A COMMAG technology on Bolex Pro:

Bolex%2016%20Pro_25.jpg

But how does a film appear with the COMMAG audio? With a normal track?


Edited by Luigi Castellitto, 11 September 2018 - 06:00 PM.

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#9 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 01:27 AM

But how does a film appear with the COMMAG audio? With a normal track?


What do you mean?
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#10 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 01:34 AM

The image looks the same with COMMAG, bear in mind it's standard 16.. COMMAG was available on B & W neg for shooting news etc (they reversed it in the telecine), but in colour it was only available on reversal stock..

 

Looking at the raw stock you had a magnetic strip where the audio track goes. 


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#11 Simon Wyss

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 01:46 AM

Forgot the MItchell Single-System R-16

 

Magnetic stripes were put on 16mm film (3M laminator, 1946), 35mm film (American CinemaScope, 1953), 70mm film (Todd-AO, 1955), Double-Eight film (1960), Super-8 and Single-8 film (196?), 9½mm film.


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#12 Luigi Castellitto

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 05:39 PM

What do you mean?

 

If with the COMMAG were used classic magnetic tracks measures for 16mm (almost all the space between frame and right edge. Compensation track I believe it is not used), but, as they say, yes, the dimensions are the same.
On the other hand, it would not make sense to cover less magnetic track space.

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#13 Simon Wyss

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 12:34 AM

Everything was made, full width stripe plus narrow balance stripe, full width stripe alone, two narrow stripes outside the perforation, a narrow stripe on an optical track covering one half or the same plus a balance stripe.

 

Technically, there are two systems, a magnetic tape in its own right cemented to the film and a magnetic paste rolled on. Additionally, you have one or two thou machined off the film, either the base or the photographic side according to originals and prints, to make a good bond. Liquid stripes should be buffed, a process step sometimes omitted.

 

CinemaScope prints originally bore four stripes, one of them a bit narrower than the others, the surround channel. If there’s a market, many things can happen.


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#14 Webster C

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 01:29 PM

Speaking of the magnetic method - there's a guy in Italy who is mag striping (liquid stripe) 8mm, Super 8, and 16mm prints. He can't do raw negative stock, unfortunately.

 

MOVIE MAGNETIC - Alberto Vangelisti
ITALY

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#15 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 10:54 PM

If with the COMMAG were used classic magnetic tracks measures for 16mm (almost all the space between frame and right edge. Compensation track I believe it is not used), but, as they say, yes, the dimensions are the same.
On the other hand, it would not make sense to cover less magnetic track space.


I'm confused on the question/comment.

Do you think the track width is too great?
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#16 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 11:06 PM

If there’s a market, many things can happen.


I mean there is a very small amatur market for magnetic stripe film, but for the Super 8 variety since that format used it exclusively.

The magnetic 16mm format was really only used for news/press as it only existed on reversal stocks. So there just weren't that many "modern" cameras made with the system. Sure, there are quite a few projectors, but that's because magnetic striped film was widely used on prints until it's demise.

Honestly, sound on film is SUPER easy to do today using digital technology. It's just, no cameras or projectors were developed, so it would require one heck of an investment to get it up and running and then probably some licensing for the technology. So where it's nice to think about what could be, without one heck of a development budget, we're just hobbyists hobnobbing about something that will never happen. :(
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#17 Luigi Castellitto

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 08:09 PM

Simon, speaking of magnetic stripes in general, I use two stripes for Regular 8 / Super 8, a classic Bolex Weberling DS 240 and a Juwel Mini 8S8 (of which I have always heard bad, but that works well), which give me many satisfactions. Obviously, with solvent!

I have a friend who has a very rare 9.5mm striper, but he still can not use it.
For 16mm, I buy service form Alberto Vangelisti, who say Webster C, He works with 16mm/8mm/Super 8 with, so he can also stripes on polyester. He does a great job, and cleans tracks and film.
I know little about the magnetic on 35mm, more complex, in fact.
Of course, even the 8mm has its stripes placed differently, see Toei etc.
I've never been interested in sound direct in camera, I'm slowly deepening the culture of it with the 16mm.
 
Tyler, sorry, but I always mess with English. I was wondering what kind of tape used the COMMAG technology. I don't think the tape used on 16mm is too wide. :)
I can say that there is disinterest for direct sound on 16mm and 8mm/Super 8 cameras , but I'm seeing some interest for the post shooting sound (on 16mm, rightly also because the cameras are rare). Less interest compared to digital audio on PC, of course, but on ebay many people buy magnetic tracks, some people ask where can find solvent, many ask notice to Alberto, etc. There a minimum of market, even if I don't explain why only for the sound post and not for the direct audio.
For example, I did not read about anyone who would like a new Ekta with pre-stripe. Of course, a new technology for digital audio on film would not be bad...

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#18 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 10:23 PM

Tyler, sorry, but I always mess with English. I was wondering what kind of tape used the COMMAG technology. I don't think the tape used on 16mm is too wide. :)
I can say that there is disinterest for direct sound on 16mm and 8mm/Super 8 cameras , but I'm seeing some interest for the post shooting sound (on 16mm, rightly also because the cameras are rare). Less interest compared to digital audio on PC, of course, but on ebay many people buy magnetic tracks, some people ask where can find solvent, many ask notice to Alberto, etc. There a minimum of market, even if I don't explain why only for the sound post and not for the direct audio.
For example, I did not read about anyone who would like a new Ekta with pre-stripe. Of course, a new technology for digital audio on film would not be bad...


Ah I understand. You're talking striping prints with magnetic soundtracks, a very different subject then the original topic.

I personally don't see the benefit of spending much time/money on magnetic soundtrack with 16mm. It would be far easier to print timecode pluses onto an optical track (since the labs know how to do this) and simply make a low-end digital playback unit. Personally, the slightly dynamic range and frequency response difference between optical and magnetic audio on 16mm, isn't quite worth the effort. A 24 bit 7:1 surround sound playback device that uses timecode and either multi track aiff/wav or encoded formats like DTS or Dolby for playback, would probably be really nice. It could theoretically work with any input if need be as well. Could even stick timecode on the 2nd track of Super 8 if you wanted.. To me, high quality audio is the #1 thing missing from 16mm. We can already do anamorphic prints, so the picture quality can be pretty darn good, just the audio has never been updated.
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#19 Luigi Castellitto

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Posted 17 September 2018 - 06:40 PM

Yes, Tyler, I had gone a bit off topic. Also because recording directly on magnetic strips was the norm for Super 8, but not for 16mm.

 

Apart from best sync, timecode and possible technologies, do you prefer optical sound to magnetic sound? Always and even in commercial films? In 16mm, but also in Super / 8mm?
I have often found, on the small format forums, people who said that magnetic sound may be better than the optical (for audible quality), but I don't know on what basis, I am not technically good for understanding it.

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#20 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 01:46 AM

Apart from best sync, timecode and possible technologies, do you prefer optical sound to magnetic sound? Always and even in commercial films?


Well optical quality is lower then magnetic for sure, mostly with dynamic range and frequency response. However, optical can be played on a wider range of projectors. Also, it's very easy to create a generic optical timecode track that can be used during the production of prints and just used over and over again. This is a process that any lab should be able to achieve without an issue, where striping film with magnetic tracks is a specialist process. So yes, I do think optical soundtrack with timecode would be the best, even though slightly more complex option.

In 16mm, but also in Super / 8mm?


No optical for super 8 isn't worth dealing with. Track width is just too small to make optical work properly and speed too is an issue.
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