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watching 720P vs. 480P


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#21 Ruairi Robinson

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 11:53 PM

Now since automotion can be turned off if one prefers a more natural look I am very suprised that no one is curious about how their favorite movie would look like if it were uprezzed to 48 frames per second. Also a photographer can gain valuable experience by knowing the look of different framerates even if that is the not the look he desires.



You might as well be asking "how come nobody wants to see their favourite movies put through a painterly effects filter?"

I want to see movies as they were intended to look, not what some engineer in a lab thought would "jazz" the pictures up.

R.
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#22 Thomas James

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 01:38 AM

Unless you are watching DVC ProHD at 100 megabits per second you are already watching jazzed up footage due to the fact of the MPEG-2 compression which uses motion compensation frame interpolation. You are not watching 24 individual frames per second because the compression engine throws away a lot of the frames. The frames are reconstructed by the decoder which guestimates what the motion will be along vector lines of motion.
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#23 Michel Hafner

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 05:39 AM

I'll probably wait six months or more before I buy a Blu-Ray player, just so that they get faster and cheaper. I guess the question is whether I really want to get a new HD monitor with HDMI inputs (and maybe even something bigger than 37" or maybe 1080P.) Or even get an HD projector instead and set-up a separate screening area just for looking at movies.

Of course you do, unless you are fed up with movies because you get enough of them 'at work'. :lol:
There are nice monitors out there but in the end you are still watching (glorified) TV. If you want the cinema experience you need a projector, preferably a 1080p model that can light up a 2-4m wide 16:9 screen. I can recommend the JVC RS1 and RS2. Not cheap, but you get the highest On-Off contrast in the industry from any digital and an overall very nice picture indeed. The RS2 projector is good enough to do grading work if you have the right external box for color gamut matching. The primaries on the JVCs are closer to cinema primaries than HD primaries.
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#24 Michel Hafner

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 05:44 AM

Unless you are watching DVC ProHD at 100 megabits per second you are already watching jazzed up footage due to the fact of the MPEG-2 compression which uses motion compensation frame interpolation. You are not watching 24 individual frames per second because the compression engine throws away a lot of the frames. The frames are reconstructed by the decoder which guestimates what the motion will be along vector lines of motion.

That's correct but in no way comparable to the kind of processing that goes on when you go from 24 fps to 48 or 72 and whole frames are created in between, The former can be made to look pretty much visually lossless with no obvious motion anomalies from compression since it always refers to what's already there, the exisiting frames. The latter does not look like the original anymore and has countless anomalies and artifacts if you look closely because perfect motion estimation and dealing with special cases is impossible in real time (and very hard to impossible non real time as well).
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#25 Michel Hafner

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 05:49 AM

This is one of the biggest problems with the new TV's -- they all go changing the image for you. What if you want an ACCURATE picture?

You buy equipment that lets you turn off all unnecessary processing. It does exist.
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#26 Max Jacoby

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 06:56 AM

You buy equipment that lets you turn off all unnecessary processing. It does exist.

I got myself the Digital Video Essentials Dvd, it has plenty of charts and helps you set up your TV properly. Even got the HD-DVD version for a friend (yep, he picked the wrong format...), I'll see how well it works on a Pioneer Plasma. They don't have a Blu-Ray version out yet, but that'll come soon.
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#27 Michel Hafner

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 08:05 AM

Calibration disks are helpful, The 'freaks' buy also probes to measure grayscale themselves and get color temperature and gamma right from 0 to 100 IRE. Good equipment allows you to calibrate such things, either in the normal or the service menu. There are several software solutiions on the market and several probes that can be used. As usual what is dirt cheap is not accurate and quality costs you something. Might be cheaper to hire an ISF tech to calibrate ones gear in the end. But for the technically inclinded it has its charms to do it oneself and see how off the usual factory or consumer settings are (such as normal, film, video, vivid etc.). Or the display's primaries (which is unfixable without a color management system built into the display or in an external box) which are usually oversaturated (especially green).
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#28 Ruairi Robinson

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 11:11 AM

Unless you are watching DVC ProHD at 100 megabits per second you are already watching jazzed up footage due to the fact of the MPEG-2 compression which uses motion compensation frame interpolation. You are not watching 24 individual frames per second because the compression engine throws away a lot of the frames. The frames are reconstructed by the decoder which guestimates what the motion will be along vector lines of motion.


Mpeg2 compression throws away information within the frames, not whole frames themselves. So yes, you are watching 25, or 29.97 individual frames per second.
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#29 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 10:39 PM

They don't have a Blu-Ray version out yet, but that'll come soon.


http://www.amazon.co...t...5089&sr=8-3
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#30 Thomas James

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:30 PM

The quality of motion compensation is a lot dependent on the quality of the compression that you start out with. If you start out with DVC Pro HD intraframe compression you will get a lot more credible upconversion than if you start out with a long 15 frame GOP mpeg-2 compression.
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#31 Tom Lowe

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:06 PM

David, you really need to see 1080p at home. I have quite a few pictures now at 720p, and they are beautiful, but 1080p is the real jump.

I've started to acquire movies at 1080p, and the detail is stunning. I watch them on my 24" LCD sitting at my desk (2 feet away) and it's amazing. I got Basic Instinct at 1080p... wow... the famous "interrogation" scene just went from R to NC-17. :lol:

I also have all the Star Wars pictures in 1080p now, and they are breathtaking. Especially Clones and Sith. For some reason, the conversion to 1080p seems to be much more impressive from material that originated digitally. It's nearly perfect, pixel for pixel. What you notice with 35mm pictures scanned at 1080p is how much grain and other noise gets picked up. You can literally see the grain moving at 1080p.

Do you have a computer screen that can show 1080p?
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#32 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 12:13 AM

Do you have a computer screen that can show 1080p?


No --- you guys either make a lot more money than me, or you are bachelors...
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