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#21 Mark Allen

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 04:59 AM

Jeff Kreines has accepted a challenge from DP Geoff Boyle to have the camera ready in a certain time frame or Boyle gets one free, so there seems to be some confidence at Kinetta.

But right now they're busy building a scanner for the Library of Congress.

Can you share the date of the challenge? I realize I'm a nosey parker - I was hoping to know all things come NAB and feel I know only a couple things.

It's a shame to have caught a little bit of the positive buzz on the camera around NAB and to find out they're now doing other things.

I'm looking down the road about 3 months and wondering if there will be a viable solution for shooting a couple independent features here - thus my urgency of curiousity. Only one can afford 35mm - but if the Kinetta is good enough - all of them could use this system instead and things would be grande.
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#22 Mitch Gross

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 09:22 AM

I would never plan on using this system for a feature this summer. There's just no way things will be ready. Even if the camera were there (big if), what are you going to edit with. How will you even view the material? How will you store all that vast data? THis is a ground up system, so the camera is just one step in the path. Perhaps you should consider Super-16.
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#23 Mark Allen

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 05:36 PM

I would never plan on using this system for a feature this summer..... [edit].... Perhaps you should consider Super-16.

Was actually looking at more September. My thinknig was that I would transfer the data nightly to storage drives and during the next day's shoot those would be proxied to movie jpg for editing in final cut (with an appropriate filtering via after effects to create reasonable approximations of the colors). Once the cut was set, we would simply do a step by step color correction of the final material taking it into regular HD space - or - if something better was available by then, we'd use that instead.

Once I have raw data on a drive, I can make it work.

Super 16 is actually a possibility we are considering. S16 to HD to film (the HD intermediate process so we can play a lot with the look of the movie). I saw 16mm done this way though once and it looked awful. Fotokem doesn't even show this on their reel anymore because they say the results vary too much. You think this is a viable option?

I had this pipe dream prior to NAB that HDV was going to come ot at 50 kbs and not 25 and that might be a nearly viable video option - that didn't happen. I think i'd rather shoot dv than hdv frankly. But the kinetta seems to be the perfect solution - though vaporware at the moment.
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#24 geoffboyle

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 12:54 AM

The offer I made was that I would extend Kinetta the same challenge that I issued RCA many years ago when they introduced their CCD camera, or rather didn't.

That offer was to buy a camera on the spot with a 6 month delivery deadline, after that deadline expired the price of the camera would drop by 10% per month until after 10 months late it was free and they then started paying me 10% per month until they deliverd.

RCA refused the offer, a good thing for them as they never delivered, Kinetta accepted.
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#25 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 04:31 AM

Hi,

Well, looks like Geoff's going to have one by September!

Phil
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#26 Mitch Gross

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 06:58 PM

Super 16 is actually a possibility we are considering. S16 to HD to film (the HD intermediate process so we can play a lot with the look of the movie). I saw 16mm done this way though once and it looked awful. Fotokem doesn't even show this on their reel anymore because they say the results vary too much. You think this is a viable option?

It's a very viable option and people are using HD or 2k data for Digital Intermediates everyday. If Fotoken doesn't want to show you a demo, call over to Technique/Technicolor Creative Services and ask all about the work they do. S-16-HD-35 is how "City of God" was posted.
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#27 Justin Barham

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Posted 01 May 2004 - 03:46 PM

There's just no way things will be ready.  Even if the camera were there (big if), what are you going to edit with.  How will you even view the material?  How will you store all that vast data?

That's an interesting question. I'm guessing that maybe the magazine holds about 300-400GB of data. When a mag is full you would obviously want to 1) copy all it's contents to a locked drive (s,) and 2) import offline HD footage into an NLE for viewing/editing. The new Kona 2 card supports Dual Link HD-SDI, but I wonder if the Kinetta format would be properly "seen" by Kona/FCP. Of course this all would require a mag to meet an NLE before it could be deleted/"reloaded."
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#28 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 01 May 2004 - 05:00 PM

Hi,

You wouldn't bother with a Kona card if you just wanted it in FCP - you'd dump it onto hard drives and then downres it to offline.

Phil
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#29 Justin Barham

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 12:09 PM

You wouldn't bother with a Kona card if you just wanted it in FCP - you'd dump it onto hard drives and then downres it to offline.

Phil

I guess I'm missing something. How would you "dump it onto hard drives" uncompressed w/o using Dual Link HD-SDI? How else could one transfer the data from the mag to a CPU drive?
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#30 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 03:35 PM

Hi,

If you read the first page of this thread, I made a post about a particularly attractive way of working for low-budget outfits.

Phil
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#31 Justin Barham

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 11:03 AM

Hi,

Apparently to get the data out of the mags, they operate as a serial ATA master, which means you can plug a hundred-quid hard drive into it and have it spool off the images.

Oh that's nice. Definitely simplifies things.
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#32 Paul Mogg

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 10:00 AM

Hi folks,
On reading these posts it struck me that if the "Mag drive" unit that is being created for the Kinetta camera were made available as a stand-alone unit, it might be even more commercially viable than the camera itself. It would instantly make all of those new, cheap, POV HD cameras like the $20,000 (or less) Sony HDC X300 into viable field cameras. They all have SDI out, and all that is lacking is a portable means of recording the HD data. I wonder if this has been considered by whoever is making them?

All the best
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#33 Mitch Gross

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 10:35 PM

Oh yes, it has.
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#34 Paul Mogg

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 10:45 PM

I'm glad to hear it Mitch, can I buy one please?

LOL

Paul
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#35 Mitch Gross

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 05:42 PM

I'm glad to hear it Mitch, can I buy one please?

LOL

Paul

Get in line behind me. :P

People have been emailing me as if I were one of the people behind Kinetta. I've been talking to the designers for more than a year about their system, but I'm just an interested customer like the rest of us. It was pretty easy to get info from Jeff; I just emailed him.
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#36 Matt Edwards-Davies

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Posted 14 May 2004 - 09:31 PM

Would the mag be able to mount as a hard drive via the SATA interface? Provided of course that it uses a standard file system...
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#37 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 04:46 AM

Hi,

I don't think that's how it works; it works as a SATA master so you can dump off onto a drive without needing a computer.

This might imply that it's possible for them to implement software to mount it as a drive, but I don't really see what the object would be. Get some SATA caddies and go with it. Lower power requirements, simpler, and probably more reliable.

Phil
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#38 J Jukuzami

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 12:29 PM

The Kinetta is a very interesting concept. It seems that uncompressed id the way of the future, or even present. Hard drives are getting less and less expensive. It does not make any sense to develop new tape mechanisms. I think that Panasonic too understands this.

There is another development that may help those on a budget. Prospect HD is an application that works with dual Opteron processor. To save money on hard drives, one can feed a computer via HD SDI and Prospect HD compresses the signal quite transparently, in 10 bit, 4:2:2.
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#39 Mitch Gross

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Posted 17 May 2004 - 11:05 PM

To save money on hard drives, one can feed a computer via HD SDI and Prospect HD compresses the signal quite transparently, in 10 bit, 4:2:2.

If it is 10bit 4:2:2 then it is most certainly not transparent.
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#40 J Jukuzami

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Posted 18 May 2004 - 03:39 AM

I said quite transparently; it is a lot less compressed/filtered than with CineAlta or Varicam recorder.

10 bit, 4:2:2 is what NLEs can handle

You can have 12 bit 4:4:4 but if your NLE will not handle it, what is it good for

Diferent subject: Compression is used in digital film storage and everywhere; it just depends how and how much you compress
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