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Eclair flickers... help!


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#41 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 07:03 PM

Hey Heikki,

Those 9 pin Cannons for the motor to camera connection.  ACL service people may often have these in stock.  A short while ago following a tip from Andrew at AZSpectrum I contacted Paul Scaglione at Visual Products and they were $25 each,  with tails,  as Eclair must have origionally ordered them.  Did you check with Les B? 

 

Coming back to flicker causes.  I don't know if the rubber drive block is causing anything,  but it is an easy thing to eliminate.  If ordering parts,  get one and then forget that.  Looking for causes (what causes something) can be very complicated.  Change one little thing,  and suddenly another thing is enabled.  The S16 conversion may enable other factors to come into play.


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#42 Heikki Repo

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:24 PM

Back to square one:

 

At the moment I'd be really happy if I just found out where that exposed "window" is coming from. Yesterday I spent about an hour in a dark room with a bright led flashlight + a piece of paper taped to the gate area. I tried my best to find the internal reflection that would paint a light rectangle on the frame while still leaving out that narrow very clean cut area on the S16 area of the frame. I didn't find anything. There is nothing inside the camera that would make a clean cut narrow area of shadow on the frame when light is bouncing around.

 

That is to say, at the moment I'm not really that interested in the cause of flicker. I'm interested in the cause of that weird rectangle of light. Since the cause isn't the blooper light, I have to continue looking for the cause.

 

Next up:

- New tests with the whole viewfinder inside a black bag to rule out all viewfinder related light leaks (in my opinion this is at the moment the most probable cause since it fits with the very bright daylight and the viewfinder could reflect a rectangle shaped area of light on the film frame. Also, I'm having problems with all lenses. Even when I'm using that 10mm lens that same rectangle flicker seems to appear...

- New tests with black paper taped over the mirror to rule out problems not related to the mirror

 

BTW, this test was shot with AGFA Aviphot 200 / Wittnerchrome 200D. I like the look.


Edited by Heikki Repo, 06 April 2014 - 12:26 PM.

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#43 David Cunningham

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 08:28 PM

That's definitely the best looking AGFA 200D I've seen yet.  It's just too grainy in Super 8 but that looks pretty good in Super 16.

 

I don't see why, but I still say that the source of this square flicker/window that only occurs during spots of bright light (such as a the sun) being at just the right angle... is light reflecting off the ground glass.  This problem looks very similar to when you take your eye way from the eyepiece without first closing the eyepiece shutter.


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#44 Simon Wyss

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:45 AM

You just need a sunshade.

 

Tube, compendium, matte box, flag, anything that cuts off light outside the image rectangle before it can reach the innards of that camera.


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#45 Doug Palmer

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:46 AM

Heikki,  I don't have an Eclair but that light rectangle reminds me of a similar-looking effect I used to get enlarging stills in the darkroom. I spent hours and hours trying to find the fault. Then one day I noticed a really tiny round pin-hole where the lens-mount was attached to enlarger. It was creating its own large faint rectangular image.


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#46 Doug Palmer

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:55 AM

Heikki, you've probably checked already,  but carrying on from this is there a pin-hole leak in the viewfinder optics somewhere?


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#47 Heikki Repo

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:51 AM

You just need a sunshade.

 

Tube, compendium, matte box, flag, anything that cuts off light outside the image rectangle before it can reach the innards of that camera

 

 

First half of the material was shot with those Contax Zeiss lenses with long lens hoods. Despite that there is still that odd light...


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#48 Heikki Repo

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:54 AM

Heikki, you've probably checked already,  but carrying on from this is there a pin-hole leak in the viewfinder optics somewhere?

 

Well, that's something I'm about to check by putting the whole viewfinder inside a black bag during next tests :)


Edited by Heikki Repo, 07 April 2014 - 05:54 AM.

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#49 Freya Black

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:07 AM

Have you considered masking the gate down to 4:3 and running tests?

I ask because you suggested this problem only started after the Super16 conversion.

If the problem went away with a masked gate you would know that it definitely is related to the actual conversion.

 

I noticed there is a strip of film to the right of the frame that seems unaffected by the flares. Is this the Super16 area?

 

Freya


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#50 Heikki Repo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:08 AM

I'm happy to tell you I have found the cause. The problem was caused by a light leak, however not from the viewfinder. Many thanks to all of you contributing to this discussion. :)


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#51 David Cunningham

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:21 AM

I'm happy to tell you I have found the cause. The problem was caused by a light leak, however not from the viewfinder. Many thanks to all of you contributing to this discussion. :)

 

Well don't leave us hanging... where was it?


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#52 Heikki Repo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:26 AM

I sent you a PM.


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#53 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:31 PM

Heikki,

Can you tell us what it was?  Don't be embarassed if you missed something obvious  (maybe we all did).  The feeling of relief should fix that.  Was it a reflection from a filter or something like that?

 

Cheers,

Gregg


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#54 Mark Gulbrandsen

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 03:25 PM

Over the years I have gained quite a bit of experience with crystal camera motors and Hall effect motors. I believe the result of the flicker is because of the early hall effect drive motor. These motors generally do not have overlapping pole pieces and they tend to hunt between the poles, this "hunting" area is essentially a dead point in the rotation of the motor itself. If you notice in some of the transfers posted the flicker oscillates at a slow rate... comes and goes. I believe that this is caused by a slight back oscillation into the mechanism itself from the motor hunting.  Cinema Products cured this issue. Aside from adding variable speed as part of the conversion on the MIALA they also added a small high mass flywheel to the motor shaft between the motor and the inching knob. This was enough to give some kinetic energy to the motor itself and smooth out it's rotation. You'll notice that area of their converted motors is also wider and has a different cover to accommodate that flywheel. There is little kinetic energy stored in the ACL itself to help filter out this hunting between poles that the motor does. Later ACL motors do not have this flickering problem. I just bought another ACL(French) with MIALA motor and I'm anxious to see if it flickers or not. If it does I'll machine and add a small high mass flywheel myself in place of the inching knob and then shoot another test.

 

What made me think of this? Years ago I built a VistaVision projector because I used to do a lot of location dailies. I used a Bodine Hall effect drive motor on this projector because it was 1/4 hp and would fit in the palm of your hand. It's a very light efficient little motor that Bodine sells to this day but it caused a slight back oscillation into the projector mechanism which could be heard and which was viewable with a variable speed strobe. Adding a small flywheel to the motor shaft added enough kinetic energy to overcome the hunting the motor was doing and it fixed the problem. The projector was subsequently used  on a lot of films and I had zero problems with it. Anyway, this projector oscillation is no doubt similar to whats happening in the earlier ACL's. I never heard of someone with a CP motor having any flicker issues nor with the later ACL 2.

 

Hekki's flicker problem may also have been light leaking in through the filter holder.... Always cover that thing with gaffers tape!

 

 

Just my thoughts....

 

Mark Gulbrandsen

SLC, UT


Edited by Mark Gulbrandsen, 10 April 2014 - 03:27 PM.

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#55 Heikki Repo

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 04:46 PM

It was a light leak but not through the filter holder.
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#56 Heikki Repo

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 05:25 PM

A few weeks ago I wrapped the super16 shoots on my short film. Today I got to see the scanned material. I'm happy to tell you there were no problems whatsoever with my camera. A few layers of black tape over the leaky spot took care of the flicker problem. I'm beginning to suspect some of the flare issues were also related.

 

So, if you have an Eclair ACL and have problems like mine, you might want to check your camera with a bright led light, especially the front of the camera.


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#57 David Cunningham

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:06 PM

Awesome! Congrats!
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#58 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 11:36 PM

 

First half of the material was shot with those Contax Zeiss lenses with long lens hoods. Despite that there is still that odd light...

 
Hekki, do you have a Contax mount for your ACL? Or have you remounted some Contax Zeiss lenses?
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#59 Heikki Repo

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:30 PM

Hekki, do you have a Contax mount for your ACL? Or have you remounted some Contax Zeiss lenses?

 

I have a Contax Yashica to C-mount adapter. The one I used was lower quality with shiny insides so I had to put some black tape there as well to remove any chance of light bouncing from it. I have since then bought an old Beaulieu adapter which doesn't seem to have this problem but I have to test it first.

 

Contax Yashica lenses are cheap and produce quite good looking images, however there are few wide angle lenses available and those are rather slow. It would be great if everything could be done with just one adapter. At the moment I'm using 10mm and 16mm Switars for wider than 28mm.

 

I have to admit, I have been wondering if I could find some good Nikon (G) to C-mount adapter. Would be interesting to see how Tokina 11-16mm would work with Super16... ;) This might do the trick: https://www.lensadap...c-mount-adaptor


Edited by Heikki Repo, 19 August 2014 - 04:30 PM.

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#60 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 03:55 AM

Are some of the still lens camera mounts (such as exist on the front of adapters) simple enough that one could just machine a cylinder to fit between the mount and the TS fitting that joins to the ACL?
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