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Super8 sound film anyone?


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#1 Gareth Blackstock

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:08 AM

I recently came across this:

http://www.ebay.com....jMAAOSwnF9Y6wTf

 

18 carts of Kodachrome sound film!  I would be interested to see how much they go for...

 

cheers, Gareth


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#2 Mark Dunn

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:26 AM

Yes, particularly as it can't be processed as colour reversal.


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#3 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:29 AM

The problem is getting Kodachrome processed.Some people are processing 35mm slides as black & white, but no colour.


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#4 Dave Perry

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:31 AM

Yes, particularly as it can't be processed as colour reversal.

 

Hi Mark. I'm not well versed in movie film. What can't it be processed as reversal? Isn't it reversal film?


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#5 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:55 AM

Kodachrome uses a much more complex process than Ektachrome..

 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/K-14_process


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#6 Mark Dunn

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:20 AM

I should have said "can no longer be processed". I thought the end of K14 processing was common knowledge.


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#7 Andries Molenaar

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 07:01 AM

I recently came across this:

http://www.ebay.com....jMAAOSwnF9Y6wTf

 

18 carts of Kodachrome sound film!  I would be interested to see how much they go for...

 

cheers, Gareth

 

I have sold some Kodachrome DS-8 boxes to a collector to use as a showpiece along with a camera.

 

Nobody in his right mind should purchase these to expose and have them processed only into a faint sepia image.

 

Rescue film lives off found cartridges 30 years or more old which people want processed at a premium just to see if there is any family on it or if they themselves are on it, possibly as a toddler.


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#8 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 01:18 PM

If the KODACHROME film is in good shape, thus of late manufacture and under 12-15 years old and stored well, or regardless of vintage and cold stored frozen since new, it should work fine and can be reversal processed as Black & White or Sepia, or as a either a high contrast negative or continuous tone negative (for those only wanting a negative film for transfer to a digital format).  I had begun working in sound striping Fomapan a few years ago so that I could have a B&W filmstock to shoot in Single System Sound Super 8mm, but there's so much KODACHROME still in existence in the hands of many filmmakers, with much of it cold stored either refrigerated or frozen, it's easier to just use that.

 

At the moment, there is a seller on eBay selling off his entire stock that has been kept refrigerated, both KODACHROME Sound, and EKTACHROME 160A Sound (as well as silent varieties) for $18 each, a bargain if they are truly usable compared to what it would cost privately to custom manufacture something similar.  All my film processing tests on my own stock of frozen films dating back to the late 1970s still show pretty good to very good color on the EKTACHROME films, and nice B&W results on the KODACHROME films.  NOTE:  B&W or Sepia Reversal processing of KODACHROME requires Push Processing to yield normal density for those films exposed at ISO 40(without builtin 85 Filter) or ISO 25 (with builtin 85 Filter), so there will be some grain and contrast buildup, depending on scene brightness range etc.  The only way around this is to expose the films at about ISO 15(w/o Filter) or ISO 10(with Filter).  Since it's easier to use the camera's metering system, as well as the advanced features allowing lap dissolves and fades on my SANKYO XL620 camera or Braun NIZO 6056 and similar cameras, I just use the cartridge indexing and push the films to compensate to gain normal density.

 

Before I get to image samples below, please allow me to add, that while enjoying the Super 8mm forum of this Cinematography group, I have to say, there has been far too many negative type comments from more seasoned professional cinematographers who in all reality are using 16mm and larger formats.  Unless what you have to say supports and helps the Super 8mm users or those desiring to use this film gauge despite whatever one's perceived bias is for or against it, don't post it here.  Consider sticking to the forum that is relative to what you are passionate about and are using for cinematography.  No offense is intended here, but those of us involved in Super 8mm should be helping each other, not someone who doesn't really care about this gauge and wants to just bash it because it's small, or doesn't have the high quality they desire etc etc.  I'm sure you all understand what I'm referring to.  Anyhow, thank you in advance for your consideration for this forum.

 

Those that are into processing their own Super 8mm cine films, and wish to do their own 'good' KODACHROME as Reversal or Sepia, it is quite doable at home [since virtually all of my custom lab cine film processing here is done via manual processing methods].  Many desire using older filmstocks for the unpredictability of results, or purposely for aging effects, as well as those wishing for predictable results with good quality.  Personally, I'd rather have B&W Sound Film than no sound film at all.  And there is still so much of it out in the form of KODACHROME.

 

I hope this helps answer some questions those of you might have being able to use older sound films. 

 

Below are some image samples taken directly from Super 8mm frames to show relative results from processing KODACHROME outdated film as B&W and Sepia Reversal.

 

BELOW:  KODACHROME film cold stored original expiration 1981, B&W Reversal Processed.

BW_5.jpg

 

BELOW:  Same batch of cold stored KODACHROME Sepia tone Reversal Processed, expiration 1981.

Sepia_5.jpg

BELOW:  KODACHROMEcustomer's film  that expired about 2005 and was processed as B&W Reversal 2015, thus 10 years past expiration, only room temp stored.

S8_BW_1.jpg


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#9 Will Montgomery

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 03:29 PM

I should have said "can no longer be processed". I thought the end of K14 processing was common knowledge.

 

I've got the T-Shirt!

 

tshirt-500px-2.jpg   tshirt-500px-1.jpg


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#10 Robert Williams

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 05:16 PM

Happy Fathers Day!

 

I have a Canon AF514XL-S and I have a Canon PS-1000 projector from a family member.

 

SO, as long as I don't mind processing Ektachrome Type A 160 with sound in black and white, it should still record and play sound with these two devices, correct?   

 

Can it be as simple as that or am I simplifying this too much, ha? 

 

Thanks and I enjoy reading this forum! 


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#11 Mark Dunn

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:41 AM

Have you read Martin's post? The current process is different, but Ektachrome can still be processed in colour. Rocky Mountain labs still list it. They have some bad reviews- I had no problems after Kodak discontinued the process, but that was 15 years ago.


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#12 John Salim

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:23 AM

....forget Rocky Mountain Film Lab, try using 'Film Rescue International' .... https://www.filmrescue.com/

 

So much better and run by very helpful folk !

 

John S  :rolleyes:


Edited by John Salim, 19 June 2017 - 05:24 AM.

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#13 Robert Williams

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 10:09 PM

Have you read Martin's post? The current process is different, but Ektachrome can still be processed in colour. Rocky Mountain labs still list it. They have some bad reviews- I had no problems after Kodak discontinued the process, but that was 15 years ago.

Yes sir, I did read it. I guess I wasnt sure about the sound part. I don't mean to be naive or uninformed but I wasn't sure how the sound would be affected in the process. I am assuming that since it is a magnetic strip that the image processing will have no effect on it, but I am just not 100% sure. 

 

 

....forget Rocky Mountain Film Lab, try using 'Film Rescue International' .... https://www.filmrescue.com/

 

So much better and run by very helpful folk !

 

John S  :rolleyes:

Thanks John, I already have them bookmarked in my browser!


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#14 Mark Dunn

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:49 AM

Pre-striped film was manufactured for nearly 30 years. I'd say that was a pretty good clue that the recording was unaffected by processing.


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#15 Robert Williams

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:55 AM

Pre-striped film was manufactured for nearly 30 years. I'd say that was a pretty good clue that the recording was unaffected by processing.

ha, thanks, I know where to get some but I just didn't want to pay an arm and a leg for it to not work, but I shall just let common sense prevail next time

:-) 


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#16 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:36 PM

Usually the earlier pre-1982 manufactured film which requires prehardening is the more expensive to process. The EM-26 films while costing a bit more are still not out of this world to get done, with rates at $25 each 50ft cart at PPS.  There's a vendor on eBay selling out of date Super 8mm sound film of both KODACHROME 40A and EKTACHROME 160A versions, stating that they have all been stored refrigerated.   If so, the KODACHROME should still process well as B&W or Sepia Reversal, and the EKTACHROME might still yield some tolerable color.  If it had been kept frozen, it would be very good.  I was going to get a roll of each to test out, but have many other projects in line here anyhow.   Even with long out of date expired film, and the results in color being virtually all green, it can be fun to play around with a single system sound camera.  The other options of processing such old film as B&W Negative and scanning it in afterward to a positive and still having synch sound is nice.  It's amazing how much unexposed film is still out there from decades ago.  As for the mag stripe being affected by any of the process methods, all films have been unaffected regardless how I processed them here:  Color Reversal, B&W Reversal, B&W Negative or Sepia Tone Reversal.  The mag stripe is stable and fine.  This was KODAK's Sonotrack Coating, a liquid paste stripe track, not a laminate one, so it bonded chemically to the film base.  Their long discontinued post sound striping was the same and very good.  I for one, will continue to shoot single system sound film using any one of my sound cameras when I want lip synch sound or just plain location sound, especially in home movies.  As long as the camera is working well, the capstan belt is intact and snug, and you're careful with recording just like you would be with any audio recording methods, the results should be good, even at 18fps.


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#17 S8 Booster

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 11:50 PM

Actually the sound recorded with some S8 sound cameras are very good and comparably better than many video cams of newer models. Those cams has a sound like synthesized and pretty noisy, even those which record onto a chip without motors for a tape drive.  My Canon 1014 XL-S + Canon Boom Microphone BM70 the recordings were very good even indoor. The 1014 has several filters and record setting making it fit the required recording situation. The trick with direct recording is to shoot longer takes to have a possibility to take care of the "async" 18 frame to sound to picture delay when editing. The master trick is - if one had a proper editing table ala steinbeck it would be possible to transfer the recorded sound off the original film onto a separate magtape on the Steinbeck and edit the S8 film like any film and there after record the sound back onto the original without the time delay problem where the film is spliced. Wet dream.

 

One of my last projects with the "Chrome" sound film was to use a Sennheiser wireless "midget" mike system  + plugging the base into the external mike or line input on the cam. This would eliminate any camera noise even more. Unfortunately the wireless mike system was stolen before I managed to test it. 

 

You may compare these videos, in my view the S8 sound is much beefier and natural compared to that from the videocam.

 

S8, Canon 1014 XL-s but with a Sankyo hand mike dangling under the cam due to that the BM70 was broken at the time so there is cam noise on this take. Sound is set to full auto, no filter which isn't optimal, should have been set manually using headphones.

 

Anyway:

https://youtu.be/AZqb15_WM1M?t=1m7s

 

Same plane shot with a video cam:

 

Another S8 shot with the Canon but with BM70 boom mike. Still full auto. No bass filter on to reduce cam noise. Sound partly much over boosted but stil beefy sound.

https://youtu.be/j0SkygGcmx0?t=4m37s

 

Another S8, many indoor shots, C1014 XL-S + BM70 , partially Bass cut filter used to eliminate cam noise.

 

All S8 films shot at 18 FPS, Tape hiss would have been reduced significantly at 24 FPS.


Edited by S8 Booster, 09 August 2017 - 11:56 PM.

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