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#141 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 03:27 PM

You should read more... Marvin is from Douglas Adams' 4-book trilogy called, "The Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy."
:)


Ah. Tried to get through 'Hitchhiker' a few times and never made it more than a few pages. Kinda like 'Dune.' Something about them just makes my brain go 'nope.' Love Terry Pratchett though...
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#142 JD Hartman

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 03:29 PM

 

You should read more... Marvin is from Douglas Adams' 4-book trilogy called, "The Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy."

 

:)

 

The film adaptation (like most) was terrible.


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#143 Rakesh Malik

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 03:33 PM

Agreed. Not much of the satirical humor made it into the film.


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#144 David Peterson

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 04:05 AM

BMD is a private company, thus it is a bit of a mystery as to their real financial status. 

Look at RED, Jim Jannard founded it with the intention of shaking up the movie industry. I believe he still wants to make a profit (but I bet they didn't in the early years), but he places a higher personal premium on pushing forward with innovation than maximising profit. Thus he is willing to accept a bit lower profit, in exchange (as an example) for bringing raw 8K to the mainstream.

 

Perhaps BMD is being driven by similar motivation? (though likely to a smaller extent, as they don't have the Oakley fortune backing them up)

They want profits yes, but happy to accept lower numbers if they accomplish their goals of bring low low priced innovation to the industry. 

 

Maybe Grant Petty wants to leave a long lasting legacy on the filmmaking industry vs just making another 10 million dollars? Perhaps now he has already made a bundle and is very wealth, he now wants to take on new challenges (such as what they've been doing in the last few years, which I'm glad to see!).


Edited by David Peterson, 08 July 2015 - 04:08 AM.

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#145 Michael LaVoie

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 08:29 AM

Since we're talking disruptive, how about Kinefinity?  Haha.  They rarely get a nod on this board.  I spoke with one high end camera dealer who had never heard of them.  I sent them a link to the site cause I was curious and doing homework on their cameras.  The vendor said after reviewing their product that they'd never sell it.  Mostly cause it would anger their existing clients.  Hahaha. 

 

Nothing about the actual product raised a flag necessarily.  Only the price point.  Cause it's alone as the only 6K competitor to Red but for less than half the cost.

 

Rather than going with a 6K Raw camera, I opted for the FS7 as it's way more reliable and can be used for narrative or documentary work.  If the Kinemax had a global shutter however, I'd have been sold on it.  The rolling shutter on those cameras is pretty bad compare to the FS7.  But a matter of time till they solve that and the other firmware bugs that pop up on occasion.


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#146 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:55 PM

I don't think Sony will ever move away from rolling shutter on their low/mid cameras because in doing so, they loose a lot of light sensitivity and perceived dynamic range. The Japanese brands are all about specs, so building a camera that has less spec with global shutter, just doesn't appear to be their strategy. Plus, with a big imager, you need an even faster processor to deal with global shutter. This adds cost and most importantly space inside the camera for a heat sync. Because Sony is so focused on building cameras with crazy amount of functionality, they literally don't have enough space to fit a big enough heat sync. By the way, Red Cinema cameras don't have a global shutter either, they use adaptors to "fake" the global shutter look at an additional cost. Honestly, the RED solution is pretty magical and it does work well.

I've been researching Kinefinity cameras for a while and haven't been too impressed. The color science is a bit whack, what comes out of the camera requires a lot of correcting. Plus, the HARSH highlight clipping issues you see on pretty much all the Sony camera's, seems to be front and center on the Kinifinity cameras. I can't stand harsh clipping, it spoils the shot and makes it look like video. There are some demos where people shot with grey sky's that look good, but the moment you see anything shot with bright sun and there is any chance at reflection in the shot, the highlights are harsh. In contrast, the Blackmagic and Arri cameras, don't have harsh highlights, they have a very nice highlight curve. You still have detail in over-exposed areas, even though there is a slight color shift, you can work with it in DaVinci and get something out of it. I've had harsh clipping cameras before and would rather have a 4k camera that didn't have harsh clipping and had global shutter option vs a 6k camera that had harsh clipping and no global shutter.
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#147 Michael LaVoie

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 10:16 PM

HARSH highlight clipping issues you see on pretty much all the Sony camera's, seems to be front and center on the Kinifinity cameras. 

Don't have that problem but then, it all depends on how you expose the image.  If you have a waveform monitor and you take readings you shouldn't see a lot of highlight clipping on any camera.   Especially if you're shooting Raw or LOG.  It's kind of difficult to clip out highlights nowadays.  But then, you have to know how to read a waveform and expose for LOG or RAW gamma curves and that is a learning curve for some.  Not always obvious either when you have ISO settings that contrast native sensor readings etc.  This I think accounts for a lot of miscalculated exposure on Sony cameras in particular.  It's not a camera problem.  It's operator error.


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#148 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:49 AM

This I think accounts for a lot of miscalculated exposure on Sony cameras in particular.  It's not a camera problem.  It's operator error.


If you have control over you lighting, it's never a problem. However, I rarely shoot in controlled situations, that requires money and if I had that kind of money to make stuff, I'd be shooting on film anyway. So in my eyes, if you can't control the lighting and you're shooting in a more natural setting, it's important to have a camera which has a soft clipping. Sony camera's don't clip softly, they clip harshly and even with SLog/RAW capture, there is very little you can do. Just watch anything shot with a Sony low/mid grade camera outdoors and look for hot spots. They look like old school NTSC cameras, really bad.

There are boatloads of articles and videos about the problems.

http://www.dvxuser.c...p/t-332373.html
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#149 Michael LaVoie

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 08:04 AM

That's a crazy thread there on DVXuser. Haha.  Looks like everyone is trying to find some secret sauce to make the camera idiot proof.  In S-log I usually keep the highlights no greater than the 50's and I'm fine.   It's skin tones that are the main factor that will make something look overdone.   Allistair Chapman's blog XD-cam user has very good tips on how to avoid getting "flat" skin tones.  Which is the main complaint most people have.   

 

I see the same issues on Red and Arri cameras but not for the more famous large movies cause they tend to have better DP's.  But the ultra low budget festival projects that shoot with these cameras are loaded with awful over and underexposed footage.  Really isn't the cameras.


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#150 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 08:42 AM

Sometimes it isn't the cinematographers either. I've shot loads of stuff in the past that would have been fine if we'd just had some sort of small overhead diffusion, or another stop's overall light. Often it isn't so much a case of not knowing what's going wrong, it's not being able to do anything about it. 

 

Which is why I've sort of stopped shooting stuff.

 

P


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#151 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:43 AM

Sony camera's don't clip softly, they clip harshly and even with SLog/RAW capture, there is very little you can do. Just watch anything shot with a Sony low/mid grade camera outdoors and look for hot spots. They look like old school NTSC cameras, really bad.
http://www.dvxuser.c...p/t-332373.html


This has not been my experience at all with the F5/55 and especially the F65. If you're clipping highlights like this on a regular basis then you're doing something wrong. Wrong mode, wrong LUT, uncalibrated monitor, something. With 14 stops to work with I usually over-rate these cameras by 2/3 - 1 1/3 stops and still never have these issues. Or are you talking about different camera models?
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#152 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:46 AM

I see the same issues on Red and Arri cameras but not for the more famous large movies cause they tend to have better DP's.  But the ultra low budget festival projects that shoot with these cameras are loaded with awful over and underexposed footage.  Really isn't the cameras.


Harsh clipping is a Sony character trait and the problem looks identical on the Kinefinity cameras. It's not a "cinematographers" problem, as the Alexa, Red and Blackmagic cameras (of which I've worked with) don't have harsh clipping at all. When they clip, the white area gets softer, like out of focus. On the Sony/Kinefinity camera's, the white area turns into a blob of over-sharpness, which is extremely distracting. You see it mostly on reflections in the background of images. Example would be properly exposed footage of a car driving down the road in between tree's or buildings and when direct sunlight hits the car for a brief moment, you get this harsh blob that appears. I've seen it also with solid colors, there are literally 20 videos online showing this problem on stage shows.

Sure, if you're shooting indoors, have full control over lighting, then you most likely will never see this problem. However, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. It only means you're good at bypassing the issue.

This is one of the MYRAID of reasons I don't even contemplate a low/mid range Sony or Kinefinity camera. Funny enough, I've worked with the Sony F5/55 and never had that problem. It was the first thing I tested on that shoot, literally going outside with the camera on my shoulder and shooting over-exposed reflections of light in the parking lot. So it's clear to me, it's just the lower-end sensor of the low/mid range cameras. My blackmagic cameras never had that issue either. You can shoot the sun directly and it's just a nice soft bubble.
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#153 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 11:51 AM

Or are you talking about different camera models?


I was referring to the lower to mid range cameras like the FS7. Sub $10k for a complete package with lenses sorta deal. The F5/55 is a MUCH more expensive package and its a pretty good camera. But when you're a Chinese company (Kinefinity)trying to market high end cameras and your sensor has the same problem as Sony's lower to mid cameras's, it doesn't matter how good it looks at 50% in my view. A sensor needs to look good ALL the time, in darks, in over-exposing, it's critical because mistakes happen with the work I do (documentary) and there is no way to control everything, it's nearly impossible. Cameras that need to hide from bright sunlight are worthless in my world. You can't expose for the possibility of getting the sun directly in the lens, you have to expose for the subject. So that means, the sun will be blown out! If the blow-out looks like crap, then you're in trouble.
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#154 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:02 PM

Oh, I see that you are talking about the really low end cameras (I think of the F5 as being the mid-range camera). They won't have the 14 stops of dynamic range as the current F series does. And they are most likely baking in Rec709, so now the 'harsh clippy highlights' thing makes more sense. I always see it on backlit green foliage that clips to yellow. Also seen it on the F5 in Custom mode and a Hypergamma LUT. Throw the camera into Cine EI mode with a 709LC Type A LUT and it goes away.
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#155 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 12:05 PM

The FS7 has the same sensor and LUTs as the F5, btw. They intercut just fine, the F5 is just way more ergonomic and easier to use.
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