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Music video first time 4K advice


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#1 Vital Butinar

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 08:30 AM

Hi guys!

 

So in a couple of weeks my team and I are starting production on our first music video.

The pre production process has been done everything we need to know to shoot the video has been sorted.

 

Usually I used to shoot with my DSLR but a few days ago the idea fell onto the table to rent a camera and try and get a little higher quality.

 

Well I'm happy to e able to raise the quality of the image but I also have a couple of concerns. 

 

The camera that may be rented is a Sony FS5 with a Atomos Shotgun Flame recorder.

 

I have never used a more professional camera with an external recorder before but from what I have observed and learned on other shoots I gather that operation should not be that big of a deal and I'm certain that I will be able to operate the camera and figure out everything I need to know in the half a day that I'll have before shooting. 

 

My concerns are more with the external recorder and what it shoots.

 

From what I've been able to read it captures 4K up to 60fps to ProRes 422.

 

My question is first how much data will I be capturing. In esence how much disk space will the files take up so that I can ascertain how many drives we'll need.

 

The video is about 4 minutes long and for the shots with music sync we're going to have an estimated about 35 takes. I estimate about 2 and a half hours of footage. 

Then we have another estimated 35 takes of about half a minute for some story inserts some of them that will be shot in 60fps so I estimate about half an hour to 45 min of footage in total for the story inserts. 

So I guess there will be around 3 and a half hours of footage. 

 

Would this fit on the 250GB drive in the recorder or is it more?

 

If not what would be the most optimal settings to record in?

 

The video final output will be 2K.

 

The second thing is would ProRes that this recorder provides give us ability to color grade well the footage?
With DSLR footage I had always had to be very very carefuller how to shoot so that we got te desired look with final grading.

 

Anyway that's about it I'll be really grateful for any advice concerning anything with this.

I'm confident about all the aspects of the video we have a great song a wonderful story to show and I'm confident we planed everything well. 

I just want to show it as best as it could be shown.

 

I really want to make our first music video a good one. Because I think that I and our team has learned a lot in a year and I'd like to further our knowledge and up our work every project we do. 

 

Thanks and best regards

Vital 


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#2 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 03:33 PM

Well there are 5 main flavors of Pro Res: Lite, Standard, HQ, 4444 and XQ. Lite is 51MBps, Standard is 73MBps, HQ is 110MBps, 4444 is 183MBps and XQ is 312MBps(it's 444 color space, that's why)

The Sony FS5 doesn't shoot 4k, it shoots "UHD" which is basically what's used for UHD bluRay and home "4K" displays. It also only outputs 10 bit 4:2:2, so no reason to shoot pro res 4444 or XQ, those are a waste of space for you. So I'd just shoot Pro Res HQ, which is a 10 bit 4:2:2 format.

Remember, DSLR's are kinda not meant for video capture, they're stills cameras that just happen to capture video. The FS5 works more like a real cinema camera and not be stuck to Rec709 color space, which is why you have to work so hard in camera to make it look good without clipping the highlights. The FS5 will output whatever recording format the camera is setup for. So if you set it to SLog, it will spit out "LOG" which is nice. So your recorder can capture that exactly the way it is and during post production you'll have more room to tweak.

SO yes, your idea will work fine, I don't see any issues. Just use those numbers above to calculate how much storage you'll need.
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#3 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 03:37 PM

Several things I'll touch on here:

 

My question is first how much data will I be capturing.

It depends on what format and frame rate. The highest quality from the recorder is ProRes HQ and DNxHR 220x. Both are the same quality settings, though it's better to use DNxHR when editing/finishing on a PC, and ProRes when doing so on a MAC. DNxHR simply plays better with PC's than ProRes does - given that apple has limited ProRes to 32-bits on PC, and doesn't easily allow it to be written (only read).

 

I can attest that on my Atomos Ninja Flame, I use 250GB SSD drives, and can get about 2:20:00 of 10-bit 4:2:2 UHD in DNxHR 220x at 24fps. To record 4 hours straight, you'll either need a single larger SSD, more SSD's, or the ability to dump the SSD on set. 

 

If not what would be the most optimal settings to record in?

You likely want the highest quality setting, so either DNxHR 220x or ProRes HQ. If you are working with a post-house, or someone else who will be doing the editing - find out which format they prefer. 

 

The second thing is would ProRes that this recorder provides give us ability to color grade well the footage?

ProRes and DNxHR are intermediate editing codecs. Not only do they provide more bits (10-bit vs 8-bits on most internal recordings), but the 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 color space makes a big difference as well. However, even the bigger difference is the compression. H264 is just BAD compression, where either ProRes or DNx are great all-i recording formats. So yes, you can certainly push your Atomos footage a lot farther than you could H264 footage in post. 

 

The video final output will be 2K.

when I deliver like this, I take the UHD DNxHR footage into Media Encoder, and re-encode it at DnxHR 2K 4:4:4 10-bit. Because you are taking a UHD image and shrinking it down, in theory you can pull even more than 4:2:2 color space from it. Not full 4:4:4 color, but something in between. To get the best color option there, and if you plan to deliver / edit 2K - then record UHD on the Atomos, take it into Media Encoder and output it as DNx/ProRes 2K 4:4:4. I haven't noticed any slow-downs when using 4:2:2 vs 4:4:4. 


Edited by Landon D. Parks, 05 January 2018 - 03:47 PM.

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#4 Vital Butinar

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 07:21 AM

Hey guys!

 

Thanks so much for the information I was reading up on it all day yesterday and this cleared up a bunch of dilemmas for me.

 

The majority of the video will be shot on 24fps just some elements of the story part will be shot at 60fps so that we can get a few slow motion shots in there to make it look better.

 

I think the 250GB will do fine for 2:20h since we have a scheduled break in between the inside shot scenes and the exterior shoots and I can clear the drive and create two backups in the mean time. Even if it's a little less it should be fine since we can do an intermediate break and clear the drive.

 

The Sony will be set in SLog so that should be fine.

 

I just can't seem to decide on weather using DNxHR or ProRes.

 

I'll be the one doing the editing so I should chose whatever is better for me.

The only concerns I had was not having enough disk space to edit everything because I got scared by a guy who was telling me stories about how many terabytes I'd need for one video witch I knew was BS but at the same time had no idea how much data it actually way.

 

So I'll have to figure out either DNxHR HQ or ProRes HQ on one hand I'm leaning towards ProRes HQ because researching  DNxHR HQ I saw that it was 8bit and HQX was 12bit and since the FS5 outputs a 10bit ProRes HQ sims to be the logical choice regardless of slower performance on PC's since I'll be working with proxy files anyway.

 

As for DSLRs I complacently agree they are not suited for video capture but on the other hand they are really accessible and for starting out I must say it was a fantastic learning experience to be able to try stuff with them since cameras are really inaccessible. I mean I'm currently playing with the idea of buying a camera but at the current prices the logical choices are financially out of reach and the ones that might be are unusable for me and also unless we can get more and more gigs it's a waist of money anyway. So for now playing around with a DSLR and for project like this renting and then when and if things pick up a camera.

 

At the same time I'm finally happy because I'm doing something I've always wanted to be doing and have at least a grasp of what and how I should be doing it.

 

So thank you guys for the information and help it's really appreciated.

 

Plesnet weekend to everybody.


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#5 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:22 AM

If you're in a PAL country, 25 fps might make more sense than 24 fps, which is the theatrical standard.


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#6 Vital Butinar

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:51 AM

If you're in a PAL country, 25 fps might make more sense than 24 fps, which is the theatrical standard.

I am in PAL country.

But wouldn't that change the look of the footage. I'm trying to achieve a film look because of the story behind the music.

Or does it matter.

I was under the impression if you shoot 24fps you get a more filmic look and if you shoot 25fps or 30fps you get a more videoish look.


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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 11:41 AM

24 fps and 25 fps are almost the same look and often get converted from one to the other, i.e. if you shot 25 fps, in the U.S. it might get shown at 24 fps (sped up) and if you shot at 24 fps, in Europe it might get shown at 25 fps (slowed down.)  So for something aimed primarily for European TV, and will be posted in Europe, there's no reason to shoot 24 fps instead of 25 fps.


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#8 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 06:02 PM

Agree with shooting 25p.. and watch out for flicker if you shoot 60 fps ..  you won't see it in the view finder.. shoot a quick test and play back.. 50 or 100 fps.. as they are divisible by the frequency (PAL 50 Hz) would be safer.. but still worth a 5 second test shot..

No one can really tell the difference 24/25p.. but I would agree that 30p has a bit more of a "video" look.. less motion blur ?

 

If you do go with 23.98p.. put your shutter to 1/50th not 1/48th.. in case of any flicker from practical lights.. if your in a studio with professional level film lighting its not a problem.. 

 

I haven't used the camera.. but there is something about its 4K.. it might only be 8 bit of something along those lines..  I would also check before hand that the Shotgun is going to play nicely with the Fs5..but yes I would think its better than using DSLR ... 


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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 08:21 PM

30 fps on a 60 Hz system like in the U.S. looks more video-ish than 24 fps for two reasons -- one is that the motion is slightly smoother, less strobing, but the other is that we are used to seeing 24 fps movies with a 3:2 pulldown cadence for 60 Hz broadcast, with 30 fps, you don't need to use 3:2 pulldown.

 

if you want to see a 30 fps movie, watch the blu-ray of the 65mm version of "Oklahoma!", shot at 30 fps before Todd-AO switched to a 24 fps format.  It actually doesn't look too video-ish.


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#10 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 03:16 AM

I just can't seem to decide on weather using DNxHR or ProRes.

 

I'll be the one doing the editing so I should chose whatever is better for me.

The only concerns I had was not having enough disk space to edit everything because I got scared by a guy who was telling me stories about how many terabytes I'd need for one video witch I knew was BS but at the same time had no idea how much data it actually way.

 

So I'll have to figure out either DNxHR HQ or ProRes HQ on one hand I'm leaning towards ProRes HQ because researching  DNxHR HQ I saw that it was 8bit and HQX was 12bit and since the FS5 outputs a 10bit ProRes HQ sims to be the logical choice regardless of slower performance on PC's since I'll be working with proxy files anyway.

 

DNxHR is best if you're editing on a PC, ProRes if you're editing on a Mac. Also, if you are using Avid, you should use DNx period, since its Avid's native codec. DNxHR and ProRes have the exact same bit rate and compression, though I think ProRes might be 200mbps, where DNx is 220mbps. 

 

How much space you'll need depends on your project. Just keep in mind that 1 hour of DNx or ProRes will run you about 100GB. If you're storing 10 hours of raw footage on your computer, you will need at least 1TB of storage, in addition to your OS and programs - and space for an export too. From a storage stand-point, DNx and ProRes are the same file size - so it doesn't matter.

 

And no, DNxHR is not 8-bit. There is is an 8-bit option for DNxHR, but the Atomos recorders do not offer it - they only do 10-bit. DNxHR is actually available anywhere from 8-bit to 12-bit. You'll only find the 8-bit and 12-bit options as export options in programs.

 

The reason I suggest DNxHR over ProRes for PC's is because, like I mentioned earlier, PC's are limited to 32-bits with ProRes playback, and there is no native/easy way to render to ProRes on a PC. Apple has done all they can to keep ProRes off the PC systems - or at least cripple it where they couldn't keep it away entirely. Take it from someone who has dealt with both types in the past, DNx plays back a heck of a lot smoother on a PC than ProRes does, especially when you're dealing with large UHD/4K files.


Edited by Landon D. Parks, 07 January 2018 - 03:21 AM.

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#11 Vital Butinar

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 03:25 PM

Ok thank you guys for clearing things up for me there. I knew about PAL ad the 25fps and NTSC being 30fps because of the electrical system frequencies and flickering it might cause. 

 

Also I think I'm going to be using DNxHR since I'll be doing the editing on a PC.

 

I will be shooting some shots at 60fps I just have some concerns about the FS5 since the specs state that it only goes up to 30fps but then I noticed that there was a slow function but I guess I'll just ask the guy that's renting the equipment about it.

I need to make the arrangements this week anyway.

 

So thanks again everybody for enlightening me on this subject.

 

Maybe one more question. Any advice since this will be my first time shooting on a camera and operating it myself either than a DSLR what would I need to watch out for.

I've looked up the external recorder so I understand the workings of that and even understand all the filming aids like the histogram, false color, RGB parade and focus peaking.

I'm a little bit more concerned with operating the camera. I've looked at the controls witch don't seem to complicated and I consider myself a tech kind of person so I don't anticipate any big issues with using it.

But never the less any thing I should really watch out for?

 

Thanks again and best regards


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#12 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 03:42 PM

Camera controls don't have to be hard to understand. First, you need to find and download a manual for the camera - before you rent it. Study what modes the camera has, and the button assignments. Make sure you know what the buttons do. Most manuals have a diagram of the buttons and thing - so study that and know where the buttons are. Get the camera at least 1 day before you plan to shot with it... Spend that day getting it all put together, and then shoot some tests with it. Use this time to get use to changing menu settings and things, since the last thing you want to do is show up on set and have to fiddle with a menu for 15 minutes fiddling a setting, or having to pull out the manual.

 

Have you operated a camera before? Do you know what controls such as ISO, Iris, ND's, Zebras, etc do? Knowing what these do, and how to use them, is vital before you arrive on set.

 

As far as operating the camera, it's not that hard. I operate and pull focus on my own rig all the time. Just make sure you have a follow focus that allows you to re-position the indicator mark toward you - and preferable one that has A/B stops. 


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#13 Vital Butinar

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 04:18 PM

Landon thank you again for your help.

 

I have the manual and have been looking trough it trying learn all about the camera.

I am also familiar with all the settings like ISO, iris, shutter speed, NDs, even filming aids. I will be having a follow focus attached that has the ability to be marked with positions and I will also be receiving the camera one day before the shoot. So had already planed to try some test shots and then review and test edit the footage before getting on set.

 

Like I said I had been shooting with a DSLR in much a similar way except it's not a camera. But I have operated professional cameras before it was just a long time ago in the pre digital era.

 

So thanks again and best regards.

 

Wish me luck. :)

 

Camera controls don't have to be hard to understand. First, you need to find and download a manual for the camera - before you rent it. Study what modes the camera has, and the button assignments. Make sure you know what the buttons do. Most manuals have a diagram of the buttons and thing - so study that and know where the buttons are. Get the camera at least 1 day before you plan to shot with it... Spend that day getting it all put together, and then shoot some tests with it. Use this time to get use to changing menu settings and things, since the last thing you want to do is show up on set and have to fiddle with a menu for 15 minutes fiddling a setting, or having to pull out the manual.

 

Have you operated a camera before? Do you know what controls such as ISO, Iris, ND's, Zebras, etc do? Knowing what these do, and how to use them, is vital before you arrive on set.

 

As far as operating the camera, it's not that hard. I operate and pull focus on my own rig all the time. Just make sure you have a follow focus that allows you to re-position the indicator mark toward you - and preferable one that has A/B stops. 


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#14 Curt Massof

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 03:12 PM

Download the AJA Data Calculator app for your phone. It's handy for figuring out storage requirements.

 

I ran the numbers you listed with some padding (4 hours of footage, UHD, 23.98FPS, ProresHQ) and it says you will need 1.43TB of storage. This includes audio capture as well.

 

ProresHQ works out to be 356.60 GB per 1 hour of footage.

 

DNxHR HQ is 314.50 GB per hour.

 

Hope this helps.


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#15 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 11:13 PM

When working with footage like DNx, you really need a some kind of Raid. That is my opinion, anyway. 


Edited by Landon D. Parks, 11 January 2018 - 11:22 PM.

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#16 Chris Burke

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:36 PM

try this calculator for judging how much storage you will need.

 

http://frogsoft.com/filecalc/


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#17 Vital Butinar

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:47 AM

Thank you guys.

This calculator comes in handy.

 

Well we're coming closer to the shoot and things are clearing out what we'll be able to do and what not. Ultimately the decisions are going to be made based on what the client will be willing to pay.

 

If nothing else I enhanced my knowledge about how much data there is.

 

I'll keep you posted.

 

Thanks again and best regards.


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#18 Vital Butinar

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 09:13 AM

Hi guys again.

 

I can't believe the coincidence that I wrote last on 14th of Jan. and today is the 14th of Feb. :)

Anyway the shoot went great! We were on location for 14 hours straight and finished only 5 minutes schedule probably because half of the scenes were shot outside and it was freezing that night.

 

Unfortunately at the end somebody that was in charge of the budget for the band figured that paying an extra couple of hundred bucks for renting a 4K camera was too expensive and as a result I was left with my trusty old DSLR for shooting.

 

But in the end it all worked out because the lighting was done right and as a result the footage coming out of the DSLR looked good too even though there is some compression in the footage that's something I and also they will have to live with since I expressed my concerns ahead of time. But all in all I still think that the HD and compression didn't impact the final result enough to bang my head against the wall.

 

And I also am super proud of my whole team because everybody stayed in good spirit and had fun but also gave their best and helped out beyond what anybody could hope for.

 

Anyway I just wanted to say thank you again and even though I wasn't able to use the information this time I'm sure the knowledge will come in handy on the next project that is just around the corner.

 

Here's the video spot on for Valentin's Day...  :)


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