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Dalsa discontinued?


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#21 John Sprung

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 07:28 PM

My camera tech (the one who still has my NPR for S16 conversion...argh... I need to get on with that) has a Model I, I think serial 37! Must have been made in 37 or 38 I guess. It's by far the oldest one I have seen yet. The other Model one was somewhere in the 300s IIRC.


That's interesting -- When Christie's in London auctioned camera #500, their brochure said that it was the first production unit. Numbers under 500 were prototypes, not sold. Of course, that could be wrong. That's the hard part of this, sorting out the errors.

As I find out about Model I cameras, I've been keeping notes on the serial numbers, when, where, and in what condition they appear to be. I should put all this into a spreadsheet, and maybe put it on a website. The most completely documented camera so far is # 1052, which was issued to Horst Grund during the war. He appears to have kept it the rest of his life, and used it to shoot the Olympic Games in 1952 and again in 1972. It's in a museum now.

http://commons.wikim..._by_Horst_Grund

PS: What about asking Arri directly for the serials? If need be I could help with any German you might need.


Thanks very much, David. For me, the problem remains the same: How to ask with sufficient tact as not to cause them pain. If we can get past that one, the next things to think about are how much material is there, and what is it. Is it just a few file folders, or is it several cubic meters of paperwork in cardboard boxes? Are there any blueprints, parts or special tools? Rather than bugging them for each serial number as I find them, if the amount is small enough, maybe I could get copies of it all? Another thought -- would the Bundesarchiv want to take custody of it?



Thanks again --



-- J.S.
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#22 David Auner aac

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 02:40 AM

That's interesting -- When Christie's in London auctioned camera #500, their brochure said that it was the first production unit. Numbers under 500 were prototypes, not sold. Of course, that could be wrong. That's the hard part of this, sorting out the errors.


Hm. My tech is Paul Dresel, who must now be way over 70. He started as a film camera tech apprentice with German TV in 1951! (It's funny, that he told me that people would advise him against that back then. They said video was around the corner and would kill film quickly!)

He has a huge collection of stuff at his place. It might be quite likely that he indeed has prototype camera, but what ever means he got it. I would be hard pressed if I got that fact wrong. It was a couple of years ago that I saw it, but was very impressed by the 2-digit serial. But if all goes well I'll be there again in the next couple of weeks. I can ask him, if you like and bring pictures, if possible!

Thanks very much, David. For me, the problem remains the same: How to ask with sufficient tact as not to cause them pain.


Hm. Does Arri have some kind of internal museum? Have you contacted them at all, yet? I mean, the ideal person to do this would be a former Arri employee who loves camera and is in retirement.

Cheers, Dave
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#23 John Sprung

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 08:20 PM

It might be quite likely that he indeed has prototype camera, but what ever means he got it. I would be hard pressed if I got that fact wrong. It was a couple of years ago that I saw it, but was very impressed by the 2-digit serial. But if all goes well I'll be there again in the next couple of weeks. I can ask him, if you like and bring pictures, if possible!

Hm. Does Arri have some kind of internal museum? Have you contacted them at all, yet? I mean, the ideal person to do this would be a former Arri employee who loves camera and is in retirement.


It's very possible that he has a prototype. Prototypes are generally kept by the company and used for reference early in the production run. The longer a model is in production, the less they need the prototypes, so they tend to get put in storage and forgotten. Eventually the company runs out of storage space, so management tells the engineers to go through it and decide what to discard. At that point, prototypes of old products often become souveniers, taken home by the guys who worked on them. So, prototypes are often legitimately owned by individuals -- they're just never sold to customers as production units.

It would be great to have pictures of a prototype, and a confirmed serial number, thanks!

There's another possibility on the number. If it's somewhere other than the usual serial number positions on the front of the camera, it might be an assembly number. Parts that have to be hand-fitted to work together were given a number, to match the right ones up again if they took several cameras apart at the same time. For instance, my camera #1579 has the number 127 on most of the internal assemblies.

I'm not sure if Arri has an internal museum. They did make a 90th anniversary glossy brochure with some historic photos, including the results of the 1944 bombing.

I have contacted Arri here, but since this is an open internet forum, let's take this over to e-mail. I'll write and tell you who I talked to.

Thanks again --




-- J.S.
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#24 K Borowski

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 10:01 PM

Despite the fact that my weekend was effectively shot with work, where I wanted to research this further, I was asked by a representative of the company to provide proof of the bad marketing I saw earlier.

I've been unable to find that clip, though I am 95% certain it was a Dalsa clip (not on the origin, on another of their products for the military), I can't be 100% certain.

So I *may* have been mistaken.

I'll find out for sure when I am, hopefully, free this coming weekend.


Let me clarify something else: I don't know how I stirred up all of this European Apologist, for lack of a better phrase sentiment, but I don't fault companies for their collaborations with the military, except maybe building atomic bombs or germ warfare research.

Dalsa, Arri, Agfa, Kodak, & Fuji have nothing to do, nor should they with how their products are used.

It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise. You can't read your clients minds or mandate the use of products; that is a case of a cure that is worse than the disease!


My only original comment, as the footage I saw again so it was fresh in my mind when I posted, was that the (I may have been mistaken it was Dalsa) rep for this HD camera showed footage, not from an Origin, but another camera company product that I mentioned earlier.

It was poor marketing, not very serving to the needs of cinematographers. I couldn't care less what is used to video tape night-vision war footage, any less than I care what is used to film surveilance footage of warehouses, or on the Hubble Space Telescope; I care, about what is used to take creative imagery or some worthy documentary work at the very least in a non-dramatic context.
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#25 Dalibor Fencl

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 04:43 AM

You cannot criticize Arri for helping the Germans in the war without criticizing every other German company, which you shouldn't. The Nazi regime used punchcards made by the IBM company. BMW made German tanks. Agfa made the film that Eva Braun shot. That doesn't make any of these companies bad companies, or give them anything to feel bad about. They got caught up with the wrong people; they have nothing to apologize about unless they were knowledgeably collaborating.


Hey guys,

love this discussion, I'd specially mention the BASF company (aka IG FARBEN) for their well-known product Zyklon-B.

Don't you thing it's bit away from the HD cameras topic?
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#26 Keith Walters

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 05:24 AM

love this discussion, I'd specially mention the BASF company (aka IG FARBEN) for their well-known product Zyklon-B.


Now be fair; IG Farben developed Zyklon B as a pesticide; they never intended it to be used on humans.

The original Zyklon-B incorporated a strong-smelling warning odorant which would produce a foul smell long before the cyanide levels were high enough to be dangerous. It was popular because after fumigation, simple airing out would disperse the gas leaving no residue.

The Nazi military ordered Zyklon-B to made without the odorant, a very serious offense at the time which was nonetheless completely disregarded.

Zyklon- B is still manufactured in some places, but not under that name.

The irony is that it was invented by Fritz Haber, a Jew, who also invented the Haber processs for making ammonia, which allowed Germany to continue to produce explosives long after traditional sources of nitrogen compounds were cut off.
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#27 K Borowski

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 02:18 PM

Hey guys,

love this discussion, I'd specially mention the BASF company (aka IG FARBEN) for their well-known product Zyklon-B.

Don't you thing it's bit away from the HD cameras topic?


I don't love this discussion.

As I inadvertently started it, and people took it as me criticizing Dalsa as supporting military attrocities or something, can we please continue it on another thread, preferably in the "Off Topic" forum?

Please?
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#28 Andrew McCarrick

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 05:07 PM

Does anybody know if there's any Orgin or Evolution camera bodies floating around for sale?
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#29 K Borowski

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 05:57 PM

Does anybody know if there's any Orgin or Evolution camera bodies floating around for sale?


No, I don't. How about starting another thread, rather than, once again, resurrecting this abortion.
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#30 Andrew McCarrick

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 02:51 AM

No, I don't. How about starting another thread, rather than, once again, resurrecting this abortion.



Umm.... cause the last post was all of two weeks ago... in a practically dead sub-forum. Why use more server resources to start a new thread for a simple question? It's not like I dig up an old thread... this was the first thread in the sub-forum.

Edited by Andrew McCarrick, 25 September 2009 - 02:54 AM.

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#31 John Sprung

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 12:39 PM

Does anybody know if there's any Orgin or Evolution camera bodies floating around for sale?


Unlikely that they're being sold -- Rob Hummel is at Post Logic now, if anybody would know what became of them, he would. I saw him at DV Expo on Wednesday, but didn't think to ask.




-- J.S.
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#32 Mitch Gross

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 04:21 PM

I know where they are, and they are not for sale. And anyway, what would you do with them? You couldn't deal with the files in any way without special hardware and software.
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#33 K Borowski

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 04:27 PM

Umm.... cause the last post was all of two weeks ago... in a practically dead sub-forum. Why use more server resources to start a new thread for a simple question? It's not like I dig up an old thread... this was the first thread in the sub-forum.


Thanks Andrew :)
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#34 John Sprung

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 07:02 PM

I know where they are, and they are not for sale. And anyway, what would you do with them? You couldn't deal with the files in any way without special hardware and software.


If you could get the whole package -- cameras and the post hardware and software -- you could still rent them out for shooting plates. It would be very much like having VistaVision gear.

I sorta gather from your first sentence that you know the whole story, you're under some obligation not to reveal it.





-- J.S.
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#35 Kevin Zanit

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Posted 25 September 2009 - 07:49 PM

I heard the entire 4k package at one point was available which would include all the Origins (I & II) as well as the three(?) Evolutions that were produced along with their Codex recorders and a bunch of lenses, etc for under $10million. This of course would come with no support, but is still a pretty good deal for the right investor considering how much just the ten(?) or so Codexs are worth. I heard this a long time ago and may not have ever been that accurate.

As for what to do with the files it creates, well certainly not that hard to deal with. Its just a lot of data. The company Elhanan and I started was able to handle Dalsa material for a relatively minimal cost. You could use the software Dalsa developed to handle their own RAW files or use the Iridas solutions already in place.

I'm still sad to see the cameras go.
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#36 Mitch Gross

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 10:45 AM

I'll just say that no one will be seeing them anytime soon. I know a bit about "where the bodies are buried" (not literally) and as far as the lenses go -- well, I have some.
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#37 Jerry Murrel

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:47 PM

I think you and John misunderstand me, Freya.

I am not saying that Dalsa is in any way to blame about what their cameras are used for, just as Arri was/is not to blame.
What I was trying to say is that night vision footage of Iraqis getting torn limb from limb wasn't a good way to sell their cameras' cinematographic capabilities to capture beautiful imagery.
What I was trying to say is as simple as that; so I don't see the need to elaborate further.


Karl,

I agree with you that there is no need to elaborate further. I personally didn't
take your post as a moral indictment of the Dalsa Corporation, and I hope no one
else did.

Not sure how your post got turned into a dissertation on morality so suddenly.

all the best,
-Jerry Murrel

Little Rock
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