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18fps in a 25fps timeline


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#1 Simon Averin Markstrom

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 03:51 AM

Hi! 

This is my first post, so im sorry if it is not formated like it should!

 

This weekend i'm shooting a musicvideo on my Arriflex 35, since 35mm is expensive i figured that i should shoot the lip-sync on s8mm.

But my 8mm camera is only shoots 18fps.

 

My question is then, should i make a version of the song that is x% slower that the singer will lip-sync to or could he just lip-sync to the song normally?

 

Thanks!

 

/Simon

 


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#2 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 04:35 AM

Depends what you want it to look like.

 

Let's assume that you shoot 18fps on your super-8 camera and have it transferred so that there is one super-8 frame in each video frame. The video file will probably be at 25fps so if you play it conventionally, naturally, everything will seem speeded up.

 

As you say, you have two choices: get the talent to perform more slowly by slowing the track down to take 25/18=1.389 times as long as it usually would. Personally I think this might risk looking a bit goofy, depending on the style of music. It's much more common to have people perform more quickly and shoot at a higher-than-normal frame rate. You'd be having people perform more slowly, and shooting them at a lower-than-normal frame rate. Your call, depends what you want. Shoot tests.

 

The other way is to import the 25 fps file into your edit software and interpret it as 18fps. Assuming you're editing on a 25fps timeline, this means that the NLE will (unless you tell it to use advanced tricks like optical flow interpolation, which I wouldn't) duplicate occasional frames to stretch out the 18fps material. This will be lumpy and uneven, since 18 doesn't go into 25, but it might be acceptable as a sort of vintage super-8 look.

 

And super-8 is probably going to look a bit vintage no matter what you do, unless it's shot with absolutely exquisite care on the very best equipment.

 

If you don't like either of those options, I would strongly suggest you find a camera that can shoot at 25, or at least at 24 and make it a 24-frame production. Super-8 cameras aren't exactly expensive, although the most desirable models have held their value amazingly well considering.

 

P


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#3 Simon Averin Markstrom

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 09:39 AM

thank you for your detailed response! I will go ahead and do what you sugested and just try to find a s8 camera that does 24/25fps. feels like the most convinient solution!

 

Thanks again,

Simon


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#4 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 10:03 AM

Or you could look at 16mm.

 

It's a lot cheaper than 35, and super-8 is notoriously expensive. 16mm may not be that much more expensive.


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#5 Nick Collingwood

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 10:22 AM

Like Phil said, it's possible to do this but it's quite the exercise in patience mainly due to it not being crystal-synced sound. For example, I shot a musician play a full song in one take (actually I was helping with a project designed around this concept called 50 Feet of Song) using a Canon 814XL-S at 18fps. Then I took the 24fps scanned file into Premiere and interpreted the footage at 18fps so it played at realtime. Then I took the audio file from my ZOOM H4N and placed it in the timeline. Now the fun part... since Super 8 cameras don't run at real-time unless they are crystal-synced, you have to splice up and squash and stretch segments of the video (NEVER the audio since that's realtime) in order to get it to match up to the audio. It's a chore. It's call wild-sync. It's not fun haha. But it's not impossible either. I've posted the two times I've done it below.

 

Even if you find a camera that shoots 25fps (I'd recommend the Nizo Professional), you'll still have sync issues since it's not crystal sync. That's the key. Without crystal sync you'll have to mash up your footage to match your audio. Because for maybe 5 seconds your camera is running at 25fps then for 10 seconds it's 25.5fps then for a few seconds it's 24.7fps... etc etc. It's not 100% consistent.

 

Otherwise, you'll have to buy a very expensive crystal sync Super 8 or 16mm camera. Honestly if your 35mm camera is sound-sync which it seems like, it may just be less hassle to shoot it with that honestly but your call.

 

Wild-synced Super 8 below.

 

 


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#6 Simon Averin Markstrom

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 04:27 AM

Or you could look at 16mm.

 

It's a lot cheaper than 35, and super-8 is notoriously expensive. 16mm may not be that much more expensive.

Maybe. But since i own a 35mm camera and a super8 camera, going 16mm will ramp up my rentalcosts by a large amount... Thanks for the input though!


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#7 Simon Averin Markstrom

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 04:30 AM

Like Phil said, it's possible to do this but it's quite the exercise in patience mainly due to it not being crystal-synced sound. For example, I shot a musician play a full song in one take (actually I was helping with a project designed around this concept called 50 Feet of Song) using a Canon 814XL-S at 18fps. Then I took the 24fps scanned file into Premiere and interpreted the footage at 18fps so it played at realtime. Then I took the audio file from my ZOOM H4N and placed it in the timeline. Now the fun part... since Super 8 cameras don't run at real-time unless they are crystal-synced, you have to splice up and squash and stretch segments of the video (NEVER the audio since that's realtime) in order to get it to match up to the audio. It's a chore. It's call wild-sync. It's not fun haha. But it's not impossible either. I've posted the two times I've done it below.

 

Even if you find a camera that shoots 25fps (I'd recommend the Nizo Professional), you'll still have sync issues since it's not crystal sync. That's the key. Without crystal sync you'll have to mash up your footage to match your audio. Because for maybe 5 seconds your camera is running at 25fps then for 10 seconds it's 25.5fps then for a few seconds it's 24.7fps... etc etc. It's not 100% consistent.

 

Otherwise, you'll have to buy a very expensive crystal sync Super 8 or 16mm camera. Honestly if your 35mm camera is sound-sync which it seems like, it may just be less hassle to shoot it with that honestly but your call.

 

Wild-synced Super 8 below.

 

 

Thank you for you respone! Alot to think about. I had no idea 8mm usaly is this funky with sync! ill pass on s8mm this project then since i already is way over my head dp/dir this project hehe. 

 

What do you think about Bealieu?

 

Does that camera have the same problems? im thinking for a future project.


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#8 Perry Paolantonio

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 07:15 AM

Thank you for you respone! Alot to think about. I had no idea 8mm usaly is this funky with sync! ill pass on s8mm this project then since i already is way over my head dp/dir this project hehe. 

 

What do you think about Bealieu?

 

Does that camera have the same problems? im thinking for a future project.

 

It's not a problem inherent to Super 8. Any camera without a crystal-governed motor will eventually drift out of sync - Super 8, 16mm, 35mm... That said, I've made plenty of "fake sync" films in a bolex and in cheap Super 8 cameras. As long as the shots aren't too long, you shouldn't have an issue making it look like lip sync (though 18fps will complicated matters). I would use a camera that can shoot at the same speed as your main project. You might also consider shooting at 24, since you'll probably find more super 8 cameras that can do 24. Speeding that up to 25 for the final product is trivially easy in post.

 

The beaulieu is a good camera, but it's not crystal sync unless you have a modified one. I've got a modified one and it works fine but I've never really done more than basic testing with it for sync, since I don't really use it that way. 


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