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Registration on Super 8


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#1 Erdwolf_TVL

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 01:49 PM

Shooting at 24fps, I have only ever experienced noticeable registration problems with one particular cartridge... Ektachrome VNF 125. I've had major registration problems on all 3 test cartridges I've shot.

http://www.canon.com...uto814_sp8.html

All other films, including Vision2 and the new Ektachrome have given me superb results.

---

Is this because of the age of the above stock?

Is the film thicker?

Or is it just a fluke?
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#2 Robert Hughes

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 06:07 PM

Registration problems can stem from age and wear in the camera, a defective cart, or possibly the thickness of the film and a camera's ability to transport it. The Ektachrome VNF film you're shooting is probably expired and suffering the effects of age, one of which may be excessive brittleness and loss of lubrication on the film.


Camera age is another big hitter; all these cameras are ancient by mechenical standards and usually have been sitting in a closet for decades before being brought back into service. You may profit from getting your camera overhauled at a reputable shop.

Edited by Robert Hughes, 17 November 2005 - 06:08 PM.

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#3 santo

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 06:55 PM

Well, this is the big problem -- camera servicing.

I had a Canon 814 autozoom as pictured in the original post. I thought it was pretty cool when I got it and liked the design. Unfortunately, because it was made some 35 years ago, the picture stability was hopeless! That is if it was all that great to begin with. I tried to open and fix it after it dropped to the cement sidewalk in a bad accident -- I had nothing to lose as it was finished -- and there was no chance of that being easy! It was as hopeless an operation as the camera's stability and focus breathing issues.

Now I have a similair quandry by coincidence. An otherwise mint Canon 814 electronic that I got for peanuts fell into my lap but it runs a little rough. I'm pretty certain it's a lack of lubrication over these 30 years since it was made. However, how in the world do I open this thing?

Opening and a light cleaning and lubrication was no problem at all for my Leicina Special thanks to the instructions that Sparky left on the Super 8 wiki. It was a pleasant afternoon.

My Leicina ran fine before, beating any other small gauge camera in any registration tests in open posted tests with frame and sprocket lines visible in the transfer on the filmshootinglcom site after a challenge from single 8 and double super 8 dreamers. I even challenged any non-pin registered 16mm users (Bolex et al), but nobody could put up, so they all shut up. But I decided to lube up my camera anyways before about 75 carts over two shorts I just finished shooting the second of. I had two jitttery carts out of that, and the rest solid enough to be unnoticeable in registration variance to a viewer of the films. Okay, jitttery is a strong word for what I saw -- they weren't firm enough to be unnoticeable. Can't expect pin-registration perfection, after all.

Back to the Canon. Does anybody know how to open up a Canon 814 Electronic? Are there screws under the vinyl on the plastic body?

Not only does it need a few shots of oil and little lithium grease (easy as pie if I can open it up and look at the metal moving parts), but looking through the back of the camera with the film cart door open, one can clearly see specs of black paint or film emusion on the back of the lens that I need to blow off! It's not on the filters as I changed those and double checked -- it's on either the lens or the beam-splitting prism.

I plan on doing a head to head test with this otherwise mint camera against my Leicina Special with the sharpest film stock available to HD transfer and want to give it a fighting chance. Can anybody tell me how to open a Canon 814 electronic for a simple clean and lube job? It could not be that hard if it's reasonably well engineered. Lubing even an Arriflex 16s is easy enough.
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#4 Maulubekotofa

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 07:47 PM

Well, this is the big problem -- camera servicing.

I had a Canon 814 autozoom as pictured in the original post. I thought it was pretty cool when I got it and liked the design. Unfortunately, because it was made some 35 years ago, the picture stability was hopeless! That is if it was all that great to begin with. I tried to open and fix it after it dropped to the cement sidewalk in a bad accident -- I had nothing to lose as it was finished -- and there was no chance of that being easy! It was as hopeless an operation as the camera's stability and focus breathing issues.

Now I have a similair quandry by coincidence. An otherwise mint Canon 814 electronic that I got for peanuts fell into my lap but it runs a little rough. I'm pretty certain it's a lack of lubrication over these 30 years since it was made. However, how in the world do I open this thing?

Opening and a light cleaning and lubrication was no problem at all for my Leicina Special thanks to the instructions that Sparky left on the Super 8 wiki. It was a pleasant afternoon.

My Leicina ran fine before, beating any other small gauge camera in any registration tests in open posted tests with frame and sprocket lines visible in the transfer on the filmshootinglcom site after a challenge from single 8 and double super 8 dreamers. I even challenged any non-pin registered 16mm users (Bolex et al), but nobody could put up, so they all shut up. But I decided to lube up my camera anyways before about 75 carts over two shorts I just finished shooting the second of. I had two jitttery carts out of that, and the rest solid enough to be unnoticeable in registration variance to a viewer of the films. Okay, jitttery is a strong word for what I saw -- they weren't firm enough to be unnoticeable. Can't expect pin-registration perfection, after all.

Back to the Canon. Does anybody know how to open up a Canon 814 Electronic? Are there screws under the vinyl on the plastic body?

Not only does it need a few shots of oil and little lithium grease (easy as pie if I can open it up and look at the metal moving parts), but looking through the back of the camera with the film cart door open, one can clearly see specs of black paint or film emusion on the back of the lens that I need to blow off! It's not on the filters as I changed those and double checked -- it's on either the lens or the beam-splitting prism.

I plan on doing a head to head test with this otherwise mint camera against my Leicina Special with the sharpest film stock available to HD transfer and want to give it a fighting chance. Can anybody tell me how to open a Canon 814 electronic for a simple clean and lube job? It could not be that hard if it's reasonably well engineered. Lubing even an Arriflex 16s is easy enough.



Does everey post have have the Special Leicina referenced? Seems like a falick sybol. Comparing 16mm to s8 is a but silly. 16mm is profesional, s8 is strictly for claymasion and other similar classwork. I have discovered the speical Lieicina is far too epensive with super 8 prodiuction coming to a halt for 10 months. latest rumousrs have china making all future film stocks but no s8.
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#5 santo

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 08:01 PM

I have discovered the speical Lieicina is far too epensive with super 8 prodiuction coming to a halt for 10 months. latest rumousrs have china making all future film stocks but no s8.


Super 8 is readily available and will be readily available during this time as stockpiles have been built up. Thanks to the amazing growth in this area and the abandoning of crappy money losing low quality K40, super 8 has grown dramatically and has never before enjoyed such professional grade stocks. What you can do now with this little format was never possible until the past year or two.

Of course, your China rumour is nonsense. You've been reading too much at the filmshooting/quack engineering/political debate/slot car site. They have no idea what's going on there, and new ideas and people discussing the reality of motion picture stocks relating to super 8 are quickly quashed by hobby projectionists who buy very little new film and often have a few screws loose, and businessmen with hidden agendas. The latter usually based on businsesses involving super 8 transfer machines that can only really handle super 8 reversal, unfortunately. And if things get too boring, the herd make up wacko theories and impossible conspiracy conjecture about Kodak or start posting Walmart threads and stuff about their basement-filling slot car tracks! It's a crazy place! :blink:
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#6 etimh

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 02:46 AM

Super 8 is readily available and will be readily available during this time as stockpiles have been built up. Thanks to the amazing growth in this area and the abandoning of crappy money losing low quality K40, super 8 has grown dramatically and has never before enjoyed such professional grade stocks. What you can do now with this little format was never possible until the past year or two.

Of course, your China rumour is nonsense. You've been reading too much at the filmshooting/quack engineering/political debate/slot car site. They have no idea what's going on there, and new ideas and people discussing the reality of motion picture stocks relating to super 8 are quickly quashed by hobby projectionists who buy very little new film and often have a few screws loose, and businessmen with hidden agendas. The latter usually based on businsesses involving super 8 transfer machines that can only really handle super 8 reversal, unfortunately. And if things get too boring, the herd make up wacko theories and impossible conspiracy conjecture about Kodak or start posting Walmart threads and stuff about their basement-filling slot car tracks! It's a crazy place! :blink:


Keep barking little doggie. I'll be seeing you soon. :angry:

Tim
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#7 santo

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 08:37 AM

this is the second threat of yours i have now reported to the site administration. hopefully the other people you have threatened with violence on other websites have done the same. there's no place for this type of thing and it isn't acceptable.
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#8 Robert Hughes

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 04:35 PM

This filmshooting vrs. cinematography debate is starting to sound like a Hatfield / McCoy feud, grounded in nothing but bad feelings. Filmshooters, please play nice or go home.

Super8wiki is a site that has a huge potential if the Super 8 community will contribute time and materials to flesh it out. Anyone having useful knowledge on camera disassembly and repair are encouraged to place their experience in print there.

Edited by Robert Hughes, 19 November 2005 - 04:36 PM.

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#9 santo

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 05:20 PM

the subject is "registration on super 8". let's do the original poster a service and steer it back to that. i gave my results / opinions. the canon link is interesting, but similar to their brag sheets and manuals which are way over the top from that era.
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#10 S8 Booster

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 04:28 PM

Shooting at 24fps, I have only ever experienced noticeable registration problems with one particular cartridge... Ektachrome VNF 125. I've had major registration problems on all 3 test cartridges I've shot.

http://www.canon.com...uto814_sp8.html

All other films, including Vision2 and the new Ektachrome have given me superb results.

---

Is this because of the age of the above stock?

Is the film thicker?

Or is it just a fluke?


probably a one-off. ive shot several vnfs with my canons 310XL / 514XLS / 1014XLS and have never had a problem with registration. the thickness should not be an issue if the e64 & v2 200t worked ok:

E64: 0.155mm
K40: 0.145mm
VNF: 0.150mm
V200T: 0.165mm
V2 200T: 0.155mm

s/hoot
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#11 santo

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 04:40 PM

An interesting and informative post, S8 Booster.

Have you measured Plus-X? How thick are the black and whites?
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#12 S8 Booster

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Posted 20 November 2005 - 05:31 PM

PLUSX:0.140mm "new"
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Willys Widgets

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

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Rig Wheels Passport

Technodolly

Visual Products

Ritter Battery

CineLab

Metropolis Post

Wooden Camera