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pushing 7218


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#1 Dave Plake

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 09:56 PM

This question I am sure has been posed but I was unable to find it... Does 7218 still look good pushed a full stop? I was planning on rating the film at 800, and pushing it a full stop. Any thoughts regarding grain? Should I only push it half a stop?

D
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#2 Joseph White

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 10:24 PM

yeah there's been a lot of talk about this very subject lately. the consensus is that pushing any 16mm stock will increase grain. with film there is always some grain, with a 500 speed 16mm stock there is typically more, and pushing doesn't necessarily help your cause. rating at 800 asa and pushing a stop will help you print down later on and get richer blacks. it will also help you do the same in telecine if you aren't making a print.

of all the 500asa films out there, 7218 is definitely the finest grain stock yet. the best thing pushing a stop does for you though, in my opinion, is it allows you to potentially not shoot wide open. so you can look at it this way - you might not necessarily need less light, but you can work with lower light at a healthier stop and give your first ac a fighting chance. as i posted about this somewhere else, 500 asa is fast to begin with, pushing a stop just buys you a little insurance. pushing will add contrast and will increase your saturation, but again it really depends on what you're shooting (ie how wide, whether or not you have practical lights you can suppliment, what your lighting package is, any slow-mo, etc).
grain is truly relative - it's always there, it just depends on how much of it really bothers you and what's apropriate for the story.

hope this helps.
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 10:50 PM

It's really a subjective issue, whether something looks too grainy or not.

I can tell you that pushing 7218 by one-stop does not increase the grain significantly or dramatically, but there IS an increase. So whether you think a one-stop push is grainy depends on how grainy you think 7218 is.

Also, remember that graininess is affected by exposure / density, and by contrast (grain is easier to see in flat areas of midtones than in a high contrast scene with mostly dark and hot areas but only small areas of midtones. So the same stock will look grainier if shot in a supermarket with lots of flat soft fluorescent lighting than in a night scene with small spots of bright light surrounded by darkness. Unless you underexposed that shot...)

As for a half-stop push, what's the point? You honestly can't get another half-stop more light on the subject? A half-stop is going to make a significant difference in getting the shot?

Edited by David Mullen, 23 November 2005 - 11:02 PM.

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#4 Dave Plake

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 04:46 PM

[quote name='Joseph White' date='Nov 23 2005, 07:24 PM' post='76505']
yeah there's been a lot of talk about this very subject lately. the consensus is that pushing any 16mm stock will increase grain. with film there is always some grain, with a 500 speed 16mm stock there is typically more, and pushing doesn't necessarily help your cause. rating at 800 asa and pushing a stop will help you print down later on and get richer blacks. it will also help you do the same in telecine if you aren't making a print.

of all the 500asa films out there, 7218 is definitely the finest grain stock yet. the best thing pushing a stop does for you though, in my opinion, is it allows you to potentially not shoot wide open. so you can look at it this way - you might not necessarily need less light, but you can work with lower light at a healthier stop and give your first ac a fighting chance. as i posted about this somewhere else, 500 asa is fast to begin with, pushing a stop just buys you a little insurance. pushing will add contrast and will increase your saturation, but again it really depends on what you're shooting (ie how wide, whether or not you have practical lights you can suppliment, what your lighting package is, any slow-mo, etc).
grain is truly relative - it's always there, it just depends on how much of it really bothers you and what's apropriate for the story.



Joseph...Dave thank you to both. Very informitave. I think I am going to go for it. Rate it at 800 an push one full stop.
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#5 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 07:50 PM

"Push Process" increases graininess and contrast somewhat. For only half a stop of underexposure, I'd favor not pushing. You'll find the Kodak VISION2 stocks are amazing in their underexposure latitude compared to other films on the market.
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#6 Sol Train Saihati

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 06:38 PM

(on a side note)
I believe Wally Pfister ASC pushed 5218 one stop for a lot of Batman Begins. I saw it the other day on the big screen and thanks partially to a great screen print (and a world class post team) the film looked spectacular, "Extraordinary" in his own words.

Here we are: http://www.theasc.co...tman/index.html

Considering it was a push, the look was very sharp and incredibly clean. I've pushed 5279 aplenty, always accepting that a noticeable increase in grain was the price we had to pay, although with Vision 2 stocks perhaps the toll is not quite so costly.

Have not seen 7218 pushed yet, although with 7279 I generally leave a push for emergencies only :D , always with a massive increase in grain and a considerable loss of detail. Although its definitely a "look".

Edited by djdumpy, 26 November 2005 - 06:39 PM.

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#7 Sam Wells

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 07:53 PM

IAs for a half-stop push, what's the point? You honestly can't get another half-stop more light on the subject? A half-stop is going to make a significant difference in getting the shot?


Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a lab that would even offer you a half stop push on ECN.

(stills labs can do this because they are more likely doing dip & dunk)

-Sam
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#8 Thomas Cousin

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 12:33 PM

hello,
according to the 7218 push. i tested it 2 years ago for my first film on S16mm as a DP. there was a scene on the street in paris and i was afraid to miss light a little. the location was pretty dark and the streelights didn't add a lot of light.
so i want to test a rough test on the same streets at night wide open with the 7218. a "normal" pass then a 1stop push pass. the lab blew up the test on 35mm (i had that chance at the time, since then the following shorts i shot, i can't barely shoots tests and furthermore can't test blow-ups, it's sad).
so i saw the results on screen. and the difference was there but not very noticeable. there was a very slight addition of grain in the pushing test but, the kind of texture you can live with for a s16mm blewn up print.
it was ok, the grain was not screaming all over the screen.
maybe, the blacks lost a little of their strength.
however, another opinion about the 7218. according to your needs, i found that you can rate easily the stock at 800 and even 1000 asa, and not push the neg. and you will obtain results very good. the stock has such a beautiful latitude in the lower part that it can handle underexposure very well.

thomas
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#9 Chris Keth

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 12:40 AM

I don't have a grab handy but I did it on S16 about a year ago and was very pleased with the results. It had grain, obviously, but I don't think it is excessive or distracting. It just depends on what you're looking for. Soon, I'll post some grabs of a shoot I did on 7218 pushed 2 stops and rated at 1600. I did it mostly as an experiment, so we'll see what happens.
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