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Film for projection with color and black and white clips


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#1 Steven Budden

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 12:43 PM

I've asked this before but it was sort of a side question in a much longer post, so I thought I would focus on the question a little.

I'm shooting regular 16mm for projection on 16mm (for now). I am interested in using both color and black and white in my shorts.

One short is Kodak black and white negative and 50D color negative.

The other is fomapan and tri x reversal (I haven't shot color for this one yet).

Anyway, what are my options? I know these ones...

1. Cut in the color with the black and white on the negative, and then print on color print film, but suffer the color cast in the black and white portion.

2. Make release prints and then splice those together (cement?)

I think that's it. I'm only making a few prints to start, so I wouldn't mind doing a little labor on each one.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks!

Steven
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#2 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 03:17 PM

I've asked this before but it was sort of a side question in a much longer post, so I thought I would focus on the question a little.

I'm shooting regular 16mm for projection on 16mm (for now). I am interested in using both color and black and white in my shorts.

One short is Kodak black and white negative and 50D color negative.

The other is fomapan and tri x reversal (I haven't shot color for this one yet).

Anyway, what are my options? I know these ones...

1. Cut in the color with the black and white on the negative, and then print on color print film, but suffer the color cast in the black and white portion.

2. Make release prints and then splice those together (cement?)

I think that's it. I'm only making a few prints to start, so I wouldn't mind doing a little labor on each one.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks!

Steven


Intercutting silver image B&W print with color print does run some risk of having a focus difference, as silver absorbs much more infrared energy from the projection lamp, which may cause it to curl differently in the projector gate. If there have to be many splices in the print, you do run more risk of one breaking during projection.

Printing onto color stock, you need to cut the B&W negative and color negative into separate A/B rolls, so the lab can use the necessarily different printer setup to compensate for the orange colored mask of the color negative. If the lab is careful, they can usually give you a fairly neutral B&W image on a color print, but do expect to see slightly warm highlights and slightly cool shadows in most print processes, as color print is optimized for producing a neutral gray scale from a color negative and not a B&W negative.
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#3 Sam Wells

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 01:51 PM

The purist in me says B&W should always be printed on B&W stock, but I've seen some pretty good shot-on-B&W sections in color prints lately. I thkn the Vision print stock does a better job of this than previous color print stocks.


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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 03:32 PM

You also have to consider the sound pop at the splice, assuming you are making prints with an optical track, plus the fact that the sound is not at the same location as the image on the print.

I'd just print both on color print stock.
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#5 Steven Budden

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 08:12 PM

You also have to consider the sound pop at the splice, assuming you are making prints with an optical track, plus the fact that the sound is not at the same location as the image on the print.

I'd just print both on color print stock.



Thanks! That clarifies things a little. What film prints black and white and color on color print stock lately or older? Also, does anyone know how it was done in Tarkovsky films (Solaris I think... and Andrei Rublev).

Steven

PS. Sam, the purist in me agrees with you.
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#6 Sam Wells

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 09:09 PM

B)-->
QUOTE(Steven B @ Dec 1 2005, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks! That clarifies things a little. What film prints black and white and color on color print stock lately or older? Also, does anyone know how it was done in Tarkovsky films (Solaris I think... and Andrei Rublev).
[/quote]

Well Peter Kubelka's Swechater for one.

Beautifully clean B&W sections on color stock for Good Men, Good Women. (Hou Hsaio-hsien) (but I dunno if the US prints were Vision or earlier)

Solaris I dunno. There were B&W sections that printed a kind of sepiaish tone in The Sacrifice.

The color section at the end of Andrei Rublev was spliced to the B&W print I'm sure.

-Sam
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 11:34 PM

If the color sections are small and limited, then it may make sense to splice them into b&w prints (as did "Schindler's List", "Rumblefish", Kurosawa's "High & Low", etc.) rather than print an entire movie on color print stock when 95% of it is b&w. But if you're popping back and forth between color and b&w, it makes more sense to print on one color print stock.

I believe Soderberg's "Kafka" tried to make the switch to color during a reel change so that there would be no splicing issue.

Problems with the spliced prints for "Schindler's List" and theater owner complaints caused the second batch of release prints to be all on color stock, or at least for the reels with color shots.

Edited by David Mullen, 01 December 2005 - 11:35 PM.

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The Slider

Visual Products

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Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Metropolis Post

Ritter Battery

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Aerial Filmworks

Wooden Camera

Opal

Gamma Ray Digital Inc