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Beaulieu 6008S VS. ZM4


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#1 InvisibleSun

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 02:26 PM

Hi everyone,

I have the chance to get 6008S or a 4008ZM4. Both have the same Schneider 1.4/6-70mm lens. The ZM4 is in perfect/mint condition and comes with a new battery pack. The 6008 is in good condition. Both are about the same price ($500). I was wondering which one you think is the better deal? I am leaning towards the ZM4 since it seems to be a bit more rare. I was also thinking (since I am in no hurry) that I should wait for a ZM4 with the 6-80mm Angenieux lens since it is longer and has a better macro function. I'm not sure...

Thanks for any advice!
Erick
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#2 InvisibleSun

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 03:34 PM

I forgot to mention one minor detail - the ZM4 needs to have the light meter calibrated or I'll just use a hand held meter...

:D
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#3 santo

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 07:00 PM

$500 is only a deal if they've been serviced in the past year or two. You can go pick up a really nice looking Beaulieu 4008 ZM2 on ebay.de and get a battery pack and get it shipped to you for less than the $500 bucks.

Although I don't know from first hand experience, the Schneider 6-66 f1,8 is more highly regarded than the Schneider 6-70 and no doubt no significant loss over the Angenieux 6-80 f1.2. As good as the Angenieux probably is. Hard to say, as Angenieux did produce the crapcan 12 -120 zoom at the same time. However, the 6-80 / 6-90 were supposedly developed for NASA with big bucks behind them. However, the Schneider 6-66 was chosen by Leitz to refine for the no compromise/cost no object Leicina Special when their other model started with an ANgenieux 8-64 lens, so who really knows if the Ang 6-80 or the Schneider 6-66 was better? No objective tests exist that have ever come to light on the internet.

The Angenieux 6-90 f1.2 on the 4008 is a rare anniversary model, though seemingly pretty regularly available in 6-80 form on the 5008 model.

Here's a page from a good site that's a basic guide to this stuff if you haven't seen it already:

http://www.bondy.de/...ieu/models.html

However, between the two models you list, the 4008 ZM4 has probably a better resale value because of its flamboyant styling.
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#4 Bob Last

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 07:38 PM

It is the ZM2 that sometimes comes with the 6-80mm Angenieux. They are anniversary editions and rarely show up in eBay. The specs is the same as ZM4 and the color of the body is black instead of brown.

With that price range, you can get a 6008Pro. Best thing about the Pro version is they oftentimes comes with a crystal sync module. This module cost about $300 alone if you get it from Wittner. A 6008Pro with 6-70 lens just sold in eBay for like $280. Spend another $250 for service to Bjorn and you have a like-new camera.

Edited by LastQuark, 08 December 2005 - 07:39 PM.

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#5 santo

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 09:46 PM

I hope the original poster doesn't mind, and it's pretty much on topic, but LastQuark I've got a question you might be able to answer. Either you or Bjorn would know this one, or somebody else reading this?

What is the deal with the Angenieux 6 - 80 f1,2 and the 6 - 90 f1,2 ? A lot of people confuse the 6-90 f1,2 with the f 1,4 version, just for people reading this, but they are very different looking lenses.

For reference of those new to this, the Angenieux 6 - 80 and 6 - 90 f1,2 look like this:

Posted Image

While the Angenieux 6 - 90 f 1,4 looks like this:

Posted Image

I've got two questions. Why would Angenieux produce a lens (the f1,2) with a 6 - 80 and also a 6 - 90 spec? That seems really strange. They look the same, don't they? Maybe there is no answer except in the Angenieux archives, but it doesn't seem to make any sense on the face of it.

Second question, I see this 6008 with the lens. Was this stock or a custom job? Does the 6008 have a regular C-mount?
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#6 InvisibleSun

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 11:03 PM

Thanks for the replies! Most of my source info has come from:

Beaulieu Info

Sounds like I should wait for a better deal, though...

Thanks!
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#7 Bob Last

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 04:40 AM

Why would Angenieux produce a lens (the f1,2) with a 6 - 80 and also a 6 - 90 spec? That seems really strange. They look the same, don't they? Maybe there is no answer except in the Angenieux archives, but it doesn't seem to make any sense on the face of it.

There is a small difference. The 6-80 has a zoom lock at 40mm. The 6-90 doesn't. The 6-90 is newer and offered on 6008 Digital and Pro when they were the latest models at that time. Other than that and zoom range, performance is the same. There is a collector value on the 6-90 because they were expensive when they came out and only produced in limited quantities.

Second question, I see this 6008 with the lens. Was this stock or a custom job? Does the 6008 have a regular C-mount?

I believe you are referring to the f1,4 6-90 in the 6008. The f1,4 only came in Beaulieu mount. There is no c-mount available (of course fixed lens on the Bauer). The 6008 can take both Beaulieu mount and c-mount just like 7008 and 9008.
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#8 Alan Rik

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 02:05 AM

I just wanted to say that is my picture of my old camera (Before it went on Ebay) of my 6008s MD Digital!
Thats kind of cool. I can tell because of the screen and the wooden table I used to photograph it. Now I am using a Leicina Special and I have to say that the Leicina test roll that i shot using Tri-X was sharper than the images i got with the Beaulieu but I have to take into account operator error as the Beaulieu is a little complicated to use compared to the Leicina. The Leicina is my favorite camera I have used. I have been following your posts Santo and thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
One thing to consider about the 4008 is the battery situation. I was going to get the 4008 as well but I never liked the idea of having to use a battery pack tucked in my pocket. The 6008s uses 6 x AA batteries and everything is contained. The way that it should be I think.
In terms of resale the 6008s usually never goes below $400 or so but the Beaulieu 4008's go for much cheaper so I would have to say the later 6008's and newer models hold their value better. Oh.. and they need less work and upkeep. The 4008's have these little filters that can fall out,etc. Oh, the 4008's have the better viewfinder though . Hands down. Ground glass too.

Edited by Alan Rik, 11 December 2005 - 02:06 AM.

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#9 santo

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:37 AM

I'm glad you've got a Special that's working well for you, but admit I am a little confused, Alan. You did just sell a Special on ebay, didn't you? I remember the ad for one in the classified section here from you. Not sure if this link will work, but it was for this camera:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...item=7565525670

I notice it uses the same backdrop as the Beaulieu in a terrific, well-crafted listing. Now that's how you sell a camera.

But did you buy a couple of them and sell one?
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#10 InvisibleSun

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 03:25 PM

Well, I just got outbit by a dollar on ebay.de for a ZM2 with the 6-66 1.8 Schneider... It ended up going for $370 USD, plus $50 shipping and a new battery would have put in in the neighorhood of $550. Maybe it's a good thing I didn't win it... Seems like these are going for a lot! I found another one on .de I may bid on, as well. You say the ZM's go for less than $400, can anyone point me in the right direction to get one for this price with the 6-66 lens? There is also a 7008 Pro on ebay now that has a starting bid of $1200! That seems like a lot of bread for a Super-8 camera. Can it really be worth THAT much?
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#11 Alan Rik

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 06:36 PM

Hey Santo,
What happened was I purchased the first one but it didn't have the 10mm Cinegon. Then I saw an auction for another kit with the Cinegon and the intervalometer but the seller wouldn't part with the Cinegon alone AND he wouldn't sell to the US. Germany only.
So through a middleman I purchased it and figured I would sell the xtra camera with the Optivaron. That is the one that went up for auction. The interesting thing about the quality control on the Leicinas is that both cameras shot identical super sharp and contrasty images. I put both on the same tripod and focused on the building across the street. I then shot at the 6, 30 and then 66 focal range. Tested all the speeds. Swapped lenses...tried the macro. I have to say that the results were identical on both cameras. Exactly the same. Perfect exposure and the detail was astounding. I used TriX and It reminded me of 16mm Newsreel footage. That sharp. Definitely the sharpest zoom I have used. Maybe on the same par as the 1.2 6-80 Angenieux, but I felt the Beaulieu 6008S combo and the Lens are fiddly. Only half of my shots came out like I thought they would. I am positive that this is because of operator error. The Leicina can be used as a point and shoot. But not the Beaulieu.
Then when I thought things could not get any sharper? I put on the Cinegon and was blown away.
The first time i saw a Leicina I thought ..what an ugly camera..like a breadbox with a lens. I felt the same way when I saw a Leica Mini. But then I used it. Now.. sad to say.. Im a Leicafile. Trying to get my first M6.
They truly knew what they were doing with the Leicina. Superb camera..easily my favorite camera of the ones I have owned.
I dont feel the need to buy another camera...except maybe another DS8 Canon (Sold it because K25 was discontinued) or a Fuji ZC1000. But then again..they are big. The Leicina with the Cinegon is small and stealthy. I have been following your posts for some time Santo and you were on the money with the Leicina.
I am not going by hearsay.. I have tried some of the best cameras out there and the Leicina is one of the best.
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#12 Alan Rik

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 06:47 PM

Hey Invisible Sun,
Why dont you give Bjorn an email? He sells Beaulieu's regularly. I am sure he will have a couple ZMII's and 4's. His pricing may be a little higher than you would have wanted to pay but remember that it will be in totally new and refurbished condition and the lens will be collimated to that specific camera. One of the prerequisites for the fantastic images that the Beaulieu can deliver. I have had 3 Beaulieu 6008S's in the past.
The first had the aperture stuck (Ebay..My dads..it worked great 10 years ago.. I think its still perfect even though I havent tried it with film.. all sales final.. you know the deal!)
The second was good but I sent it to Bjorn for a total cleaning and Ground Glass modification.
The 6008S MD was sent in for a complete overhaul.
If you buy off of Ebay I would definitely only buy if the camera has been CLA'd recently. (Cleaned, lubed, adjusted). Other cameras you may not need to but the Beaulieu definitely if you want the unit to work like it should. So many little things could go wrong with that camera.. batteries, filters, lens collimation. They remind me of Ferraris...great but only if you do the upkeep.
Good luck!
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#13 Rab

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 06:12 AM

There's a range of Beaulieu models on ebay.de at the moment. From the point of view of functions, robustness, ease-of use, reliability, servicing etc (ie not primarily about looks, lens or price) which model from 400x upwards do you think is the best?
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#14 Bob Last

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 10:44 AM

There's a range of Beaulieu models on ebay.de at the moment. From the point of view of functions, robustness, ease-of use, reliability, servicing etc (ie not primarily about looks, lens or price) which model from 400x upwards do you think is the best?

robustness - 600x, there is no built-in gel filter that degrade. Althought not metal, they are made of Lexan (used in astronauts face shield) which is quite robust.

ease-of-use - 600x, can accomodate different battery types. Other than that they are all the same.

reliability - they are all the same imho.

servicing - all the same althought there are more electronics ont he 600x. Best thing about Beaulieus is new spare parts are still available and there are boxes and boxes of them. Check this out:

Beaulieu inventory

Also check the following link for comparison. If there is any specific Beaulieu I recommend, it is the 7008 Pro II. The 7008 was modified at the same time by Ritter in Germany and Super8Sound. Ritter called it 9008Pro. Super8Sound called it 7008 Pro II. There are much more pro features added in the Super8Sound mod - self calibration, improved gate, higher torque motor to eliminate jitter on jittery carts, etc.

Beaulieu comparison
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#15 Roel van Noord

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 06:17 PM

InvisableSun

I have a 6008S with Schneider F1.4 6-70mm. It is in very nice condition and has some accessories. You can PM or mail me if you might be interested.

Good luck,

Roel
The Netherlands
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#16 A.Oliver

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 11:34 AM

Beaulieu 6008 range sit better on a tripod than the 4008s horrible little handgrip. Also 4008 has 1/87th sec shutter which makes moving subjects look a little stroby ( i think thats how you spell stroby?). The schneider 6-66 lens fitted to my late 4008 zm2 gave incredibly sharp images, even wide open at 1.8. I am under the impression it was the best super 8 zoom ever made, followed by the 6-80 angenieux.The 6-80 lens, i think, is the only super 8 zoom that the iris is measured in T-Stops intstead of F-Stops. The 6-70 is also a superb lens. The difference with my 6-80 and 6-66 ( 6-66 on the leicina) lenses is colour balance, the schneider tends to be on the cold side, while the angenieux has a warm colour balance to it. The 6-80 makes k40 look stunning, even on grubby days. i would say the 6-66 has the very slight edge on sharpness. I would advise getting the 6008/7008 range with 6-70, 6-66 or 6-80 lenses, putting cash aside to have the camera serviced.
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#17 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 26 August 2009 - 11:16 AM

As this is still the best and most comprehensive thread on both
- Schneider Beaulieu-Optivaron 1:1,8 / 6-66mm (C-Mount)
- Angénieux f/1,2 | T/1,4-2,1 / 6-80mm (C-Mount),
I decided to add some info here directly, answering questions that various forum members mailed me over the past months while I was away from the forum.

I totally agree with Santo's statements that the quality of the Angénieux 13x6mm rivals that of the Schneider 11x6mm -- which has, however, from my point of view slightly the edge in terms of a more neutral colour reproduction, as Angénieux lenses of that time tended to go into the bluish-green hue.

The photos show the Angénieux 13x6mm with Beaulieu Reglomatic, compared next to a lens for the 16mm format, the Angénieux T/2-2,8 / 10-150mm (ARRI-Mount) with a Chrosziel fluid drive and focus aid.
This shows the sheer size of this Super 8 lens to an already quite sizeable Normal 16 lens. To have this attached on the Beaulieu bodies via C-Mount makes it obvious why companies such as Super8Sound and Ritter in the US and Germany respectively offered reinforced mounts as an option.

On the Angénieux 13x6mm, you can clearly see the the Beaulieu Reglomatic, two electric motor servos housed in two lateral tubes alongside the lens through which the cameras' automatic exposure control and electric zoom control can be operated. Both the diaphragm and the focal range can also be set manually via an T-stop setting ring and a zoom lever (which can be of different lengths). There is a critical focus control button which automatically adjusts maximum aperture and the tele-angle, thus narrowing the depth-of-field and generating a handy focusing aid. The electric zoom can be set to travel through the entire focal range at all speeds, while the manual alternative is supported by good friction from the internal cogs, allowing very smooth zooming in comparison to other cameras.

It has a great macro option, like the Schneider 11x6mm: normally, Super 8 cameras restrict the macro option to the wide-angle position. This has two disadvantages: at this position, lenses suffer the worst aberrations, and the image covered is unfavourable for macro angles. However, the macro control of the Schneider 11x6mm and Angénieux 13x6mm moves the entire lens group, allowing macro angles at any focal length from the front lensonwards to 1.5m distance.

As already mentioned, its aperture markings were calculated according to its real-light transmission, compensating for intra-lens losses – the given T-stops are hence accurate markings and can be used in conjunction with negative film data sheets.

I have also attached the spec sheet (just as photo, no scan) that gives some further details on its optometrics.

Hope that helped, folks, sorry for the delay in posting this.

-Michael

Attached Images

  • Ang_nieux_13x6__Top_.jpg
  • Ang_nieux_13x6__Front_.jpg
  • Ang_nieux_13x6__Specs_.jpg

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