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#1 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 09:24 PM

Can anyone tell me what HD SDI output is about? If am capturing straight from the HVX200 to a Firestore drive, I'd be preserving quality instead of capturing to tape then from tape to the NLE-system? Is this canon's equivalent of such a thing, or how does it work?
Thanks for the help!

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#2 Matt Irwin

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 10:50 PM

If am capturing straight from the HVX200 to a Firestore drive, I'd be preserving quality instead of capturing to tape then from tape to the NLE-system?

Well, in the case of the HVX, yes. The tape transport in the HVX is identical to that in the DVX100, so it only records DV 24p/30p/60i. In order to record in DVCPRO50 or HD on the HVX, you would have to record to P2, firestore, or some other DTE. The difference between recording HD to tape and recording HD to P2 is that there is no possibility of dropouts and there is no need to digitize footage-- just drag and drop.

Is this canon's equivalent of such a thing, or how does it work?


SDI is professional connection that is NOT Canon-proprietary. In fact you'll find an SD- and/or HD- SDI port on most modern broadcast cameras. In the case of the XLH1, the SDI port gives you the ability to bypass the HDV recorder and pipe out 10-bit Uncompressed 1080 4:2:2 (the image is actually processed at 8-bit and output at 10-bit, according to Canon @ DV Expo) to a RAID array (to hold the uncompressed footage) or to an HD deck where the footage will be recorded to HDCAM or DVCPROHD tape (a codec is applied and the footage is no longer uncompressed).

The problem, for now at least, is there is no portable solution for the SDI connection. So if you plan on staying in the studio with the XLH1, you'll be fine; but if you want to use the SDI for run-and-gun shooting, get a hold of a ruck sack, an HD deck, and a car battery. :D

Edited by Matt Irwin, 12 December 2005 - 10:53 PM.

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#3 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 09:13 AM

Well, in the case of the HVX, yes. The tape transport in the HVX is identical to that in the DVX100, so it only records DV 24p/30p/60i. In order to record in DVCPRO50 or HD on the HVX, you would have to record to P2, firestore, or some other DTE. The difference between recording HD to tape and recording HD to P2 is that there is no possibility of dropouts and there is no need to digitize footage-- just drag and drop.
SDI is professional connection that is NOT Canon-proprietary. In fact you'll find an SD- and/or HD- SDI port on most modern broadcast cameras. In the case of the XLH1, the SDI port gives you the ability to bypass the HDV recorder and pipe out 10-bit Uncompressed 1080 4:2:2 (the image is actually processed at 8-bit and output at 10-bit, according to Canon @ DV Expo) to a RAID array (to hold the uncompressed footage) or to an HD deck where the footage will be recorded to HDCAM or DVCPROHD tape (a codec is applied and the footage is no longer uncompressed).

The problem, for now at least, is there is no portable solution for the SDI connection. So if you plan on staying in the studio with the XLH1, you'll be fine; but if you want to use the SDI for run-and-gun shooting, get a hold of a ruck sack, an HD deck, and a car battery. :D


Thanks for your info! is there any other HDV camera that captures HD at 4:2:2 in the market today beside the XL H1? does the XVH200 capture 10bit 4:2:2 as well?
Matt, why would I need to go through all that hassle to capture uncompressed HD through the SDI port when I can do it via fire-wire to a firestore FS-4 or FS-100 drive or other DTE drives?

Edited by Oliver S, 13 December 2005 - 09:17 AM.

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#4 Matt Irwin

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 02:22 PM

Thanks for your info! is there any other HDV camera that captures HD at 4:2:2 in the market today beside the XL H1? does the XVH200 capture 10bit 4:2:2 as well?

Unless my brain is malfunctioning, no. The XLH1 is the only below-$10k camera out there that OUTPUTS 10bit 4:2:2 via SDI. I have heard that the HVX outputs analog uncompressed via the component out port, but don't quote me on that.

Matt, why would I need to go through all that hassle to capture uncompressed HD through the SDI port when I can do it via fire-wire to a firestore FS-4 or FS-100 drive or other DTE drives?

My thoughts exactly. The advantage to using an XLH1 for it's SDI port right now is that you have the ability to RECORD uncompressed HD to an on-set RAID array as opposed to applying compression to that footage by hooking the SDI up to a HD deck. Like I said in my post above though, with the current technology and pricing, hooking that camera up to a deck or RAID is totally impractical if you need portability. Of course, that could all change tomorrow. If you need to record in an HD codec, the HVX/P2 system makes far more sense to me because it all happens IN the camera-- no tethering to a deck or washing-machine-sized RAID array.

Edited by Matt Irwin, 13 December 2005 - 02:23 PM.

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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 02:52 PM

Can anyone tell me what HD SDI output is about? If am capturing straight from the HVX200 to a Firestore drive, I'd be preserving quality instead of capturing to tape then from tape to the NLE-system? Is this canon's equivalent of such a thing, or how does it work?
Thanks for the help!


Hi,

So you can get SDI out to record to a raid, very useful if you want to color correct or do any blue screen work.

If you record to the firestore you will not be recording uncompressed SDI. The HVX200 does not output uncompressed SDI so you don't have the choice with that camera.

Stephen
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#6 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 04:26 PM

So comapring both then, which one is better as far as resolution, image quality, and film look? looks like we're comparing DVCPRO HD the highest format the HVX200 delivers and the Canon HD format.. what do you guys say on both formats and cameras?

Edited by Oliver S, 13 December 2005 - 04:28 PM.

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#7 Matt Irwin

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Posted 13 December 2005 - 04:45 PM

So comapring both then, which one is better as far as resolution, image quality, and film look? looks like we're comparing DVCPRO HD the highest format the HVX200 delivers and the Canon HD format.. what do you guys say on both formats and cameras?


Well, that's kind of a hard call to make because it's totally subjective: one camera will look better to one person while someone else might prefer the look of the other one. Both cameras have 1080 chips, however the HVX's chip is progressive while the XLH1's is interlaced. The HVX does true 24p, 30p, 60p, and 60i in 480, 720, and 1080 (no 60p in 1080), while the H1 does "24F" and "30F" (not true 24p, but looks really close). Based on the footage I've seen from both cameras and keeping in mind that the HVX is still in prototype stages, I think the Canon shoots some of the best looking HDV I've seen, but overall, I like how the HVX footage looks more than the H1. They way HVX renders motion as well as it's color rendering (4:2:2 as opposed to HDV's 4:2:0) appeal to me more. Now of course the SDI footage from the Canon that was recorded to an HD deck looks amazing, but as far as the cameras alone are concerned, right now I like the HVX.

Again all of that is subjective, so I think you should look at the footage yourself and decide which cam you prefer.
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 03:13 AM

So comapring both then, which one is better as far as resolution, image quality, and film look? looks like we're comparing DVCPRO HD the highest format the HVX200 delivers and the Canon HD format.. what do you guys say on both formats and cameras?


Hi,

It depemds what you are going to do with the fottage! If you are just going to look at the pictures then the DVCPRO HD will be fine. If you want to follow a heavy post route then Uncompressed HD-SDI will be better.
Its not a Canon HD Format it's uncompressed HD-SDI thats the difference.

Stephen
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#9 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 07:58 AM

Based on the footage I've seen from both cameras and keeping in mind that the HVX is still in prototype stages, I think the Canon shoots some of the best looking HDV I've seen, but overall, I like how the HVX footage looks more than the H1. They way HVX renders motion as well as it's color rendering (4:2:2 as opposed to HDV's 4:2:0) appeal to me more. /// In the case of the XLH1, the SDI port gives you the ability to bypass the HDV recorder and pipe out 10-bit Uncompressed 1080 4:2:2 (the image is actually processed at 8-bit and output at 10-bit, according to Canon @ DV Expo) to a RAID array


I thought you said in an earlier post that Canon output 4:2:0 like all HDV and the HVX200 only outputs 4:2:2.. sry but that kinda got me lost ! haha

Well I guess guys for the film look as far as motion and colors, the HVX200 would be better, but then if the footage is going to undergo heavy post work than the canon is better since it pumps out uncompressed HD..

but I have a question, isn't the DVCPRO HD good enough for heavy post? I mean its datarate is 100mpbs, what is the datarate of the Canon's uncompressed HD via HD-SDI?

Edited by Oliver S, 14 December 2005 - 08:04 AM.

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#10 Stephen Williams

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 09:13 AM

but I have a question, isn't the DVCPRO HD good enough for heavy post? I mean its datarate is 100mpbs, what is the datarate of the Canon's uncompressed HD via HD-SDI?


Hi,

Depends on what is good enough for you?
DVCPRO HD is 100mpbs @60p and 40mbps @24p
Uncompressed 720 60p around 818mbps and 24p around 223mbps.

If you want to edit at home or on a laptop the DVCPRO HD is much easier to handle!

Stephen
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#11 Matt Irwin

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 12:55 PM

I thought you said in an earlier post that Canon output 4:2:0 like all HDV and the HVX200 only outputs 4:2:2.. sry but that kinda got me lost ! haha

When recording to tape in the HDV format, the color sampling = 4:2:0 like all HDV cams. When bypassing the VTR and piping out via SDI, the color sampling = 4:2:2.
Sorry for the confusion.

Edited by Matt Irwin, 14 December 2005 - 12:56 PM.

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#12 Oliver Ojeil

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 03:34 PM

When recording to tape in the HDV format, the color sampling = 4:2:0 like all HDV cams. When bypassing the VTR and piping out via SDI, the color sampling = 4:2:2.
Sorry for the confusion.


So piping out through SDI makes it 4:2:2, how then the HVX200 has 4:2:2 color sampling.. is it because it captures on P2 or external DTE? also would it be 4:2:2 with the canon capturing straight to a DTE instead of through SDI? thanks

Edited by Oliver S, 14 December 2005 - 03:36 PM.

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#13 Stephen Williams

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 07:29 AM

Hi,

One thing is not clear with the HVX 200, what is the actual resoloution of the chip? I understand that HVX downrezes to 960x720 so I guess the JVC may well have a higher resoloution, at least through the SDI out.

Stephen
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