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loading film outside?


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#1 seth christian

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:14 PM

Just wanted to clear up a couple confusing issues with loading film in my
camera everytime I have to change film:

1. Fuji 64D, 250, 500T are the films I'm getting to use....I don't have to
worry about being outside when I take off the mag cover to change the film?

2. The whole coating on the film thing, is that what protects it..providing its not "sun" bright!?

3. If I'm totally off on this whole thing, tell me the procedure on how to
safely go about this process and not ruin my footage!!

As you can tell, I'm more of a still photographer in the past and digital animator...the movie
filming stuff seems to be a little figgitty with some things, so I'd appreciate a little lesson
cause it'd be a shame to ruin $180 of film.
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#2 Brian Wells

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:16 PM

You need a film changing tent -- especially with the 500 ASA!
http://store.yahoo.c...chanbagten.html
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#3 seth christian

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:28 PM

thats only for the exposed film? (film thats just shot)

what about the fresh stock putting in, need to use a tent as well.

So...the whole camera goes in the tent, or just the mag?

Details please for the idiot! ha
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#4 David Sweetman

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:54 PM

If your film is on 100' daylight spools, you can load it in the light. Not direct sunlight, but you can load it in, say, a room in your house.

If it isn't on a daylight spool, you'll need to use a changing tent when you load it and when you unload it. If light hits it on either occasion, it will be "flashed," and you'll get nasty fog when you process it.
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#5 seth christian

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 11:24 PM

by daylight spools...you're referring to the kind of film like Fuji 64D for daylight?
Or are you referring to the different kinds of mags that come off of the Bolex Rx?

Don't hate me, I'm just learning these little details cause I'm paranoid
of ruining my film.
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#6 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 11:30 AM

If the film is on a metal spool, loading in subdued light is usually okay, but may produce a bit of edgefog (depending on the intensity of the light and amount of time the film is exposed). You also fog the ends of the roll (Kodak supplies extra film on the spool for "customer allowance"). Film "on core" (no spool) must be loaded in total darkness, or it will be fogged.
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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 12:19 PM

Hi,

The safest assumption is to always do everything in total darkness. I'd hate to be using daylight spools and be thinking "Eek, got to work fast" in a situation where that's the last thing you want to do.

Phil
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 12:53 PM

Hi,

The safest assumption is to always do everything in total darkness. I'd hate to be using daylight spools and be thinking "Eek, got to work fast" in a situation where that's the last thing you want to do.

Phil


Hi,

I don't think you have to worry much about using daylight spools. Its very easy just work in the shade.

Stephen
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#9 Andrew Koch

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 01:31 PM

-"by daylight spools...you're referring to the kind of film like Fuji 64D for daylight?
Or are you referring to the different kinds of mags that come off of the Bolex"

Films like Fuji 64D or Kodak 50D are daylight BALANCED. Sunlight has a different color temperature than tungsten lights. Daylight is generally bluer than indoor, tungsten lights. So whenever you see film that has a D next to the ASA/ISO, that is refering to what type of light the film is balanced for. It has nothing to do with whether it is a daylight spool or not.

A daylight spool is almost always a metal spool of 100ft. It is wound in such a way to allow you to load it in subdued light. I recommend taping up the mag after you have loaded it to prevent any light leaks, especially if it is an older camera like an arri s.

I'm just curious, what kind of camera are you using?
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#10 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 03:56 PM

You NEED a changing bag for both loading and unloading the film, in other words both before and after you've exposed it.

Think about it like this: film reacts to light, right? That's how it works. So what happens when you just take it out of the box and load it in the light? It's going to get exposed. You want your film to be exposed precisely ONCE, when you run it through the camera.

If you are using film that comes on cores, and using a camera with a mag, you will put both the sealed can and the mag into the changing bag and load the mag in total darkness. Then once you've run the film through the camera, you'll bring the empty can and the mag back into the changing bag and unload it, again in total darkness.

Daylight spools refer not to the type of film, but to the metal spool the film comes on. Rather than be on a plastic core, it will be on a [typically black metal] spool that completely covers the sides of the film. This allows you to load the camera without having to use a changing bag. The film on the outside of the spool will get exposed, but the light will only penetrate a few layers, so you might want to run off a few extra feet to be certain, but the rest of it will be fine.

With daylight spools, I'll usually try to turn off most lights but leave myself enough light to see. Some people have said that they like to load them in total darkness anyway, but I've never found it necessary. You've just got to pay attention to the beginning and end of your roll, so you don't shoot something on the first or last few feet, because those will be lost.
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#11 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 04:10 PM

Loading a spool in really bright light could slightly fog the edges from light that "sneaks in" between the spool flange and the film. Any edgefog would first affect the KeyKode edgeprint, or get into the Super-16 image area.
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#12 Tim Shim

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 11:59 PM

by daylight spools...you're referring to the kind of film like Fuji 64D for daylight?
Or are you referring to the different kinds of mags that come off of the Bolex Rx?

Don't hate me, I'm just learning these little details cause I'm paranoid
of ruining my film.


I know it can get a bit confusing with all the similar sounding jargon. I thought something visual might clear it up better for you.

Check out Kodak's page on Cores and Spools for a clearer picture: http://www.kodak.com....4.9.6.18&lc=en

Spools refer to the black metal spools that keep the film inside and therefore, are less susceptible to light and so can be loaded in daylight (though advisably not under direct sunlight). Cores are just little plastic cylinders to hold the film in the centre - the sides of the film are directly exposed and if light hits it, fogging may and probably would happen.

Hope this helps.

Tim
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#13 seth christian

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 01:28 AM

you'll been extremely helpful
thanks
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#14 Mike Williamson

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 04:53 AM

The explanation that I had on daylight spools, and John Pytlak can correct me if I'm wrong, was that it was reasonably safe to load them outside of a changing bag, but it was NOT safe to unload them without one.

When the film is wound onto the metal spool at the factory, there is a very small gap between the edge of the flange and the edge of the film which would allow light to leak down the edge of the entire roll of film. To prevent this, the machine that winds the film onto the spool wraps it tight against the edge of the side of the spool, then wraps it against the opposite edge, and so on down the roll. The film's anti-halation backing prevents the light from passing through more than a few layers of film. Because of these two preventative measures, you'll only lose a few feet of film if you load it outside of changing bag.

However, once you've shot your film and it's run through the camera, you don't know how it has been wound on the take-up spool, so there is a great chance of fogging all the way down the edge of the film (as it has not been wrapped on alternating sides as it was at the factory). Therefore, you have to unload in a changing bag or risk fogging all of your footage.

Having said that, I always loaded in a changing bag just to be safe. Good luck with shooting!
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#15 Stephen Williams

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 05:00 AM

However, once you've shot your film and it's run through the camera, you don't know how it has been wound on the take-up spool, so there is a great chance of fogging all the way down the edge of the film (as it has not been wrapped on alternating sides as it was at the factory). Therefore, you have to unload in a changing bag or risk fogging all of your footage.

Having said that, I always loaded in a changing bag just to be safe. Good luck with shooting!


Hi,

Never had any problems at the end of a roll. Just stay out of sunlight!

Stephen
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#16 Sam Wells

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 12:15 PM

As John said, I'd be extra careful with Super 16; edge fog that would normally go on the perf edge will be in the picture area.

I carry a small changing bag, it's good for times when essential shot is at the end of the roll and then I can can it in the bag.

Also if on sticks and I don't want to remove the camera I sometimes just open the bag, put it over the camera and use it like a hood; it's not light tight but very little at the end will get fogged.


-Sam
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#17 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 18 December 2005 - 08:24 PM

With daylight spools, I'll usually try to turn off most lights but leave myself enough light to see. Some people have said that they like to load them in total darkness anyway, but I've never found it necessary. You've just got to pay attention to the beginning and end of your roll, so you don't shoot something on the first or last few feet, because those will be lost.



ALthough the person asking is using Colur Negative, I have noticed that the Black and white stock like Tri-X reversal actually says to use total darkness even for film on the daylight spool. I suspect that the reason is the Black and white stock does not have the Black Coating on the back that the Colour Negative and Kodachrome film does. the balck coating stops a lot of light, and is removed in procesing.

AS far as removing the film in the dark, It is easier to take the film out of the Camera than it is to load it, and often you find your shot runs until you hear the film run out! If you take it out in the dark you may save your last shot!

My filmo Manual says to set the footage counter to 97 feet when loading, and run off those three feet to get to Zero before you start to shoot. After your reach 100 Ft run off three more feetwhich will take you to the physical end of the roll, The "customer allowance" that John was refering to. If you have bought ends, they may not have the extra for leader, so you will run out at counter 94 if you start with a 100 ft roll.....ALSO ends are often on a core, even if they are less than 100 ft! so you should open the package in total darkness and see if you have a spool to use FIRST!

If you have film on a core, you will need to use an adaptor to put it in a camera set up to use a spool. You may be able to get your lab to wind it onto a spool for you.

A lot of details for sure!
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#18 Hans Engstrom

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 02:04 AM

One more advice is to practise, practise and practise before you start shooting. Get some old film or leftovers (that someone was going to throw away) and start practising loading the mags in daylight, then move over to doing it in the dark but checking your results afterwards in the light (only when practising). Check for scratches after running the film thru the camera so you wont get an unpleasant surprise when getting the material back from the lab. If you screw up either loading or unloading the film everything is ruined, it doesn´t matter how good anything else is. If you´re working as a loader or 2nd AC for a long period chances are that you are going to screw up at some point, hopefully it will not be fogging an exposed negative. You will run into problems like the film unwinding from the core, you will have to fix some mags that make strange/loud noises, adjust the loop on the set, you will have to puzzle ripped apart ID tapes together (that are on the beginning of the roll) a.s.o all under timepressure. Remember to keep your loading area clean and have plenty of canned air to blow away dirt from inside the mag. A loading tent is far superior to a loading bag and much more comfortable, keep the bag/tent very clean as the dirt/dust otherwise will end up in the gate, check for light leakage regulary. Be very organized when loading/unloading and when labeling cans and mags. Put tape on the lock of the magdoor so it wont pop up during shooting or magchange. The best thing would be if you could get someone who´s an AC to join you in camera prep and perhaps during shooting. I´m not sure how much of the above you allready knew but feel free to ask more questions if there´s anything else you´re wondering about. There are no stupid or dumb questions (except maybe the PA that asked me why there wasnt any translucent loadingtents so that I could see what I was doing. This was after watching me load a mag and listen to me explaining that I´m doing it in the tent because any light would fog and ruin the film. The same PA left all the equipment unsupervised on a schoolyard during lunchbreak when he was supposed to guard it, his reason was that it was so booring sitting there all alone with noone to talk to.) One last thing, remember that as long as you keep your hands inside the tent no light will get in. No matter what problem or difficulty you may experience inside the tent, never take your arms out before you have secured the negative either in a mag or in a can. All 400ft of exposed film could be a total mess unwinded from the core, your heart beating in 180 and heavy sweat dripping from your forehead and a FAD asking every 2 minutes how much longer it will take, but no matter what never take out your arms from the tent, instead calm yourself down and remember that as long as light doesn´t hit the neg the problem can be fixed!
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