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Newbie to super8mm, some questions on processing, editing...basic


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#1 Chris Hurn

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 11:56 PM

So recently I've been looking into shooting my next short film super8mm. I've been looking at cameras, and I heard that something like this is pretty good: http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

I am confused a bit though. If I want to shoot 24p...and then get it transferred to miniDV for example, will the frame rate be changed? I actually don't have editing software that allows 24p I don't think (Adobe premiere, not 1.5). Does it matter?

About sound (this relates to my last question)...I was thinking of recording with a MiniDisc recorder, using an external mic and headphones etc... but I've heard that because the frame rate on the film isn't 'perfect', the sound won't match. I've heard something about crystal sync...not really sure. How 'off' would it go, and would it be easy to fix up in post, in a program like "audacity" (you can change tempo without ajusting pitch etc.) and using Adobe premiere? or is there a better way (without spending too much money please!).
--If the frame rate was changed in the transfer to DV, then how would this work? The audio I recorded would be even further off, wouldn't it?

Sorry for my stupid questions.

-Chris

Edited by Chris Hurn, 22 December 2005 - 12:00 AM.

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#2 Matt Sandstrom

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 12:32 AM

so you're transferring to ntsc? why exactly do you want 24p if your software can't handle 24p? or do you mean 24 fps? don't worry about it. they will change the speed to 23.976 fps in telecine and then add 3:2 pulldown, so you'll get normal ntsc video to work with and the speed won't be off by more than your camera will be to begin with since it's non crystal. and as for that it's easy to fix. just cut the audio and resync every line of dialogue and you'll be fine, or find the drift percentage and change all the audio before you begin. you understand that the camera is loud though, right? that's a much bigger problem.

/matt
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#3 Chris Hurn

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 12:36 AM

I should have mentioned I am on PAL. ( I live in New Zealand). How loud is are the cameras? Is this the deal for every camera? or old 8mm? I meant 24frames a second, for recording the film. Sorry. Still trying to get used to it all.

-Chris

Edited by Chris Hurn, 22 December 2005 - 12:38 AM.

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#4 Matt Sandstrom

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 12:45 AM

then they will speed up the film to 25 fps in telecine, which is something you'll have to take into account but it's still not a problem. how loud? well, very loud. somewhere between a sewing machine and a coffee grinder. most people shoot guide sound only and loop it all except outdoors with long lenses.

/matt
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#5 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 12:48 AM

Take note that that particular camera does not shoot 24 fps, so you probably want to pass on that one as 24 fps is best speed for sound shooting. (If you are not trying to sync sound 18 fps is okay). The Canons are good cameras and most of them shoot 24 fps, just not that model, so keep your eyes for another one. Also, by the time you got that particular camera in your hands it will probably cost about US$150, which is too much for that model, even if it was absolutely guaranteed to work.

Rick
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#6 Chris Hurn

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 12:59 AM

Wow, thanks for that. I didn't know they made that much noise. It it just 8mm cameras? How do people making 16mm shorts etc. survive? Thanks Rick. :)

-Chris
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#7 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 01:07 AM

If you buy a "sound" super 8 camera (even though they don't make the sound film any more) you'll find they all run quieter, but still on the noisy side.
Like Mattias said, most people are shooting reference sound only on set (many other factors will destory your sound, not just camera motors) and you'll re-record and sync your sound later.

Rick
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#8 Matt Sandstrom

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 01:39 AM

many modern high end 16 and 35mm cameras are almost silent, but indie filmmakers struggle with camera noise every day no matter what gauge. even an arri sr3 needs blimping in a small room.

these days i have free and unlimited access to a dubbing studio but otherwise what i like to do is shoot the dialog and all foley on location but with the camera off. not only do you get rid of camera noise but you can also bring the mic closer which solves a number of problems, and you get the proper ambience too. you'll be amazed how often it syncs up right away.

and a word of advice: make a non sync sound short first. you have to test the camera somehow anyway and this will teach you more than a focus chart. ;-) once that works out the way you expected you can add sound to the equation.

/matt

Edited by mattias, 22 December 2005 - 01:41 AM.

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#9 Matt Wells

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 02:49 AM

Definitely go with Mattias on this one - shoot a non-sync sound first as this is a lot easier.

Think about it - when you watch TV how much stuff actually needs perfect syncronisation of picture and sound? only dialogue spoken on screen really.

There have been many non-sync shorts that are superb.

If you must have a quiet camera, the quietest are the Nizo 2056; 3056; 4056; 4080; 6080 models, and they also have superb Schneider lenses.

Also if you are in a PAL region just shoot and work in 25fps. You can have these cameras modified to crystal control which means the camera runs at EXACTLY the chosen frame rate. By choosing 25fps you can then transfer the film to tape at 25fps and then match your sound in post, provided of course the sound has been recorded at an exact speed.

The Nizo models mentioned above offer 24 and 25 fps, although they are not crystal controlled as standard so I have never been too sure how much of a gimic this is - but nice anyway.

The 6080 (and the 4056 and 4080 I believe, the others up to 36fps) offer speed up to 54fps which is nice for some beautiful smooth slow motion.

Hope this is of help,

Matt
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#10 Chris Hurn

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:52 AM

Thanks for the advice.

Matt Wells - the cameras you mentioned as being quiet - how quiet are they? I'm just curious. Would a 16mm camera like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem (for example) be loud too?

I should probably start with a non-sync short for film, but I'm just curious to know for future reference.
Thanks a lot!

-Chris
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#11 Matt Sandstrom

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 05:00 AM

Matt Wells - the cameras you mentioned as being quiet - how quiet are they?

fairly quiet, but you'll still most likely hear them on the soundtrack.

Would a 16mm camera like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem (for example) be loud too?

for sure. that one comes really close to the coffee grinder side of the spectrum. plus it's even less steady in speed than most super 8 cameras. it's capable of fantastic images though.

/matt
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#12 Chris Hurn

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 05:31 AM

Thanks. I've been reading about 'blimps' and other devices on this forum.. Is that like a case to cover the camera? would it help on the Nizo cameras? Or what about throwing a blanket over it? I read that somewhere while searching the forum.

Thanks for your help,

-Chris
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#13 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 07:20 AM

Thanks. I've been reading about 'blimps' and other devices on this forum.. Is that like a case to cover the camera? would it help on the Nizo cameras? Or what about throwing a blanket over it? I read that somewhere while searching the forum.
-Chris


A blimb is a hard case that covers the camera to eliminate camera noise (usually making the camera rather imobile or difficult)

A barney is a soft covering like a jacket made to fit the camera (made of leather, foam etc.) which may not completly reduce noise but leaves it mobile and easy to use handheld.

I hope I got that the right way round...

When indoors in small rooms you're more than likely going to hear some kind of camera rumbling with or without a camera barney (this is when the art of sound mixing comes in). As you say a blanket will probably do the job as well, I use an old leather jacket that was ripped in a nightclub - the material and thickness are perfectly suited for the job.

Its probably worth trying to find a second hand camera shop that has some Nizos and Canons hanging about... and perhaps ask them to hear how they run, if thats possible.

But all those cameras are perfect if you want a non-diagetic (No lip sync or actions causing sounds) sound-track, and learning how to make something along those lines is really challenging and rewarding.
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#14 Chris Hurn

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 04:03 PM

Cool. Last question, I promise. :P Do the Nizo's have runtime limits or anything? I heard that some cameras can only go for 20 seconds or so.

-Chris
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