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technique of different effects like dissolve, fade in/out......


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#1 Yusuf Aslanyurek

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 07:11 PM

Hello all,
I’m soon going to shoot a color short film. I have to use different effects like dissolve, fade in and out, from-to white. Please, could you explain me the technique of these effects. Camera Arri III.
Thanks a lot!!!
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#2 Clive Tobin

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:26 PM

Hello all,
I?m soon going to shoot a color short film. I have to use different effects like dissolve, fade in and out, from-to white. Please, could you explain me the technique of these effects. Camera Arri III.
Thanks a lot!!!


These are not normally done in camera. Although they could be if you have complete control over the actors and if the camera can be stopped without fogging the film, and can be precisely backed up for a double exposure.

If you are making film prints, you would make up A and B rolls with the shots alternating from one to the other. With the correct splicing technique the splices are not visible. For straight cuts it could be on just a single roll at this point unless you are shooting anamorphic where the splices would show.

For a dissolve, you just have picture present on both rolls at the dissolve point. The lab prints with a fade out on the first shot and a fade in on the second shot, producing a dissolve. A fade in or out has both shots on the same roll, and orange mask (unexposed but developed color negative) on the other roll. The lab does fades or dissolves, depending on how you want it to look, fading to black in the print. For a fade to white, you would just fade out the negative in printing and where the print stock is not exposed it will be white.

If you are finishing in video, all of this can be done in the switcher or video editing system.
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:05 AM

Hello all,
I?m soon going to shoot a color short film. I have to use different effects like dissolve, fade in and out, from-to white. Please, could you explain me the technique of these effects. Camera Arri III.
Thanks a lot!!!



Hi,

Mitchell's were all built with an adjustable shutter, and the ability to run the film backwards easliy. Since the advent of digital editing in-camera effects are less common.

To perform a mix close the shutter whilst the camera is running, rewind the film then open the shutter at the start of the next scene. A fade in or out from black is just opening and closeing the shutter. A fade from white is like a mix. However the white will burn through very quickly so the shutter must start to open very slowly.

As with all effects work a little testing is useful!

Cheers,

Stephen
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#4 Yusuf Aslanyurek

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 06:57 AM

Hello Mr. Clive Tobin,
There is no budget to prefer the easily and more successfully way. So I it has to done on the shooting!

If there is someone witch have a great experience in shooting effects in camera and would tell me it, that would be great. The other question is, can I do it with Arri III, because there is no other camera to use!

Thanks a lot for all your helps!!!
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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 10:24 AM

Hello Mr. Clive Tobin,
There is no budget to prefer the easily and more successfully way. So I it has to done on the shooting!

If there is someone witch have a great experience in shooting effects in camera and would tell me it, that would be great. The other question is, can I do it with Arri III, because there is no other camera to use!

Thanks a lot for all your helps!!!


Hi,

The Arri III does not have a shutter you can adjust whilst filming. You could turn the lights on and off with a dimmer but the colours would look weird, or change the Apeture on the lens! I am not sure if you can accurately wind back the film the correct no of frames for mixes.

Have fun
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 11:54 AM

The simplest thing would be to use A-B rolls when making the finished print -- I mean, you have to edit the negative, don't you? Just ask the lab what the standard lengths are for A-B roll fades & dissolves.

Unless this is just for video transfer only, in which case you just do the fades & dissolves digitally in the editing software.

Doing a dissolve in-camera is really difficult -- I don't recommend it.
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#7 Stephen Williams

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 01:31 PM

Hi,

If your really desperate then 2 polorising filters at 90 degrees will give you your closed shutter. I used to do this with Slit Scan. The film had to be exposed for 30 seconds per frame whilst moving the camera. The 2 pol filters allowed the trail to fade out

Stephen
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#8 Yusuf Aslanyurek

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:02 PM

Yes David, it seems to be there is no other way to do dissolve. Could you explain me how it will be done in the lab, I never used effects in lab before.

The fade in/out and fade white I did in studio with dimming light, but this short film will be shoot just on nature.

Can I do the fade out/in or fade white with closing and opening f- stops.
How much f- stop I need to get black (fade out) or white (fade white)? I’ll use for this scenes Fuji Reala 500D

Thanks for your recommendations!!!
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 04:32 PM

Yes David, it seems to be there is no other way to do dissolve. Could you explain me how it will be done in the lab, I never used effects in lab before.

The fade in/out and fade white I did in studio with dimming light, but this short film will be shoot just on nature.

Can I do the fade out/in or fade white with closing and opening f- stops.
How much f- stop I need to get black (fade out) or white (fade white)? I?ll use for this scenes Fuji Reala 500D

Thanks for your recommendations!!!


Hi,

For a lab dissolve you make up A + B rolls. Scene 1,3,5,7,9 are on roll A and 2,4,6,8 are on roll B the lab is then able to disolve between the scenes.

If your stop was T2.8 and you closed the stop to T22 that would fade out. Opening from 22 to 2.8 would fade in.

For a Fade to white you would have to be able to double expose the film like a disolve.

Stephen
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#10 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 07:23 PM

First of all, you never answered my question: were you planning on conforming the 35mm negative and creating prints off of that for the final project?

If so, you need to understand editing of the negative anyway, don't you? Were you planning on sending the negative with an offline EDL & videotape (or a marked workprint if you are cutting on film) over to a negative cutting facility?

If so, someone else is going to be cement-splicing your original negative to create an edited master for printing, then you don't have to make the actual A-B rolls yourself, you just have to edit the movie using standard lab lengths for the length of the fade or dissolve (maybe it's 10-frames, 20-frames, 100-frames, I don't recall).

Generally if you want to fade to (or from) black using your lens iris, you'd light the scene, or use an ND filter, so that the "correct" exposure was fairly wide-open like f/2.8, and then slowly stop all the way down to as closed as possible and the image should go to black. Of course, you'll see a change in depth of field as you change the stop.
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#11 Yusuf Aslanyurek

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 08:41 PM

Hello David,
The filmprojekt is a student work with low budget, so there is no money to use intermediate film stock. Also, the projekt will not have a digital post production. I gona print directly from master negativ to master positiv without intermediate.
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#12 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 09:05 PM

Hello David,
The filmprojekt is a student work with low budget, so there is no money to use intermediate film stock. Also, the projekt will not have a digital post production. I gona print directly from master negativ to master positiv without intermediate.


A-B rolls do not involve intermediate stock -- in fact, they are used to avoid them for doing these sorts of transitions. It's a way of cutting the camera negative so that Part A of a dissolve is one one printing roll and Part B is on the other roll, so when the two rolls are overlaid in two separate passes onto one print, fading out Part A and fading in Part B on the printer, you get a dissolve.

Please, just talk to your lab and also read a book on A-B roll printing. Dominic Case, who sometimes posts here, wrote an excellent one on film post called "Film Technology in Post Production".

You still haven't answered my question -- who is cutting your negative? Are you going to try and conform it yourself? Do you even understand how a negative is cut to match your edit and then printed?

Don't tell me that your film school has never taught you the principle of A-B roll conforming & printing?
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#13 Yusuf Aslanyurek

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 06:56 AM

Thanks a lot, David!
I asked lab can they “print directly from master negative to master positive” they told me yes we will edit A/B negative not directly but without any (intermediate) double negative!
The negative cut will be done by a professional negative cuter!
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#14 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 11:08 AM

you just have to edit the movie using standard lab lengths for the length of the fade or dissolve (maybe it's 10-frames, 20-frames, 100-frames, I don't recall).


Hi,

Lab dissolves (in the UK) used to be counted in 35mm feet (16 film frames) so 1.5 foot dissolve would be 24 frames. The Oxberry cameras had preset dissolves of 8,12,16,24,32,48,64,72,96 & 128 frames. It was late 1970's before dissolves from 3-999 frames were available.

Stephen
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