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Creating 16mm prints from B&W reversal


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#1 Freya Black

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 06:50 PM

I'm just wondering if it is possible to still create 16mm prints in B&W from reversal footage, for example TRI-X?
I know this isn't possible for colour reversal anymore but can it be done for black and white or is Plus-X neg the only real way to go now for this kind of thing?

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Freya
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#2 Sam Wells

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:30 PM

You could make positive prints via 7234 Internegative.

-Sam
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#3 Freya Black

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Posted 01 January 2006 - 08:09 PM

You could make positive prints via 7234 Internegative.

-Sam


I just went away and looked it up and came across something called 7272 as well which can make prints from 7240. Is this film still available? It's even ECN2!

I've got a feeling there is a load of 7240 in my freezer at the moment. Maybe I could make prints from it!

Of course it might be hard to find a lab that will do wierd stuff like that (not to mention process the VNF altho I know a lab that will do it in E6) and thats 3 sets of film in both cases using weird processes. Do you think it would be cheaper to just shoot ECN-2 neg and make prints that way?

It's an interesting possibility I can think of all sorts of unmentionable advantages to doing things that way however! ;)

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Freya
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#4 Clive Tobin

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 08:00 PM

I just went away and looked it up and came across something called 7272 as well which can make prints from 7240. Is this film still available? It's even ECN2!...


This is color internegative stock which makes a color negative from original reversal. This would in turn be printed on color positive stock. The contrast is too high for printing from 7240, it was made for originals on 7252 Ektachrome Commercial. Back when we used to ride dinosaurs to work, we used to flash the high-speed Ektachrome before processing in order to make an original that would make prints through 7272 that would not have ugly excess contrast.

With the demise of both 7360 and 7361 I am not sure what labs will do now to make B&W prints directly from reversal. They could conceivably make copies on flashed or flattened Plus-X Reversal.
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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:05 PM

With the demise of both 7360 and 7361 I am not sure what labs will do now to make B&W prints directly from reversal. They could conceivably make copies on flashed or flattened Plus-X Reversal.

Would they not use the EASTMAN Fine Grain Duplicating Panchromatic Negative Film 5234/7234 :)
to make a negative, and them print on 7302 or 2302?

From reading th edata- this should also work for making a B&W release print from a colour reversal original. Only gotcha I can see is if the perf pitch will work, normaly the neg is shortter pitch than the print, but this is persumably made in Neg pitch?

I am surprised that I cannot find the clour equivelent in the listing of internediate films. The closest to an Internegative is EASTMAN Color Internegative II Film 5272 / 7272 but as other have said that is directed in making negs from EASTMAN EKTACHROME Film 7240 _ONLY_ :o The only other colour intermediate is intended for Laser recording from Video. :huh:
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#6 Sam Wells

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:59 PM

Would they not use the EASTMAN Fine Grain Duplicating Panchromatic Negative Film 5234/7234 :)
to make a negative, and them print on 7302 or 2302?


Well that's what I suggested.

I like the idea of printing reversal on "flattened" Plus - X reversal....

PS I saw a film where the filmmaker shot Super 8 Plus-X; blown up to 16mm (via what I don't know yet) and printed on Vision stock (probably not Premiere as that's pretty rare in 16mm); the only way I really knew it was color print stock was because there were color shots also.

I've _never_ seen B&W printed on color print without some color in the blacks before. Maybe it was Premiere, I'm going to try & find out. It looked *very* good.

I was surprised to say the least.

-Sam
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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 06:55 AM

This is color internegative stock which makes a color negative from original reversal. This would in turn be printed on color positive stock. The contrast is too high for printing from 7240, it was made for originals on 7252 Ektachrome Commercial. Back when we used to ride dinosaurs to work, we used to flash the high-speed Ektachrome before processing in order to make an original that would make prints through 7272 that would not have ugly excess contrast.

With the demise of both 7360 and 7361 I am not sure what labs will do now to make B&W prints directly from reversal. They could conceivably make copies on flashed or flattened Plus-X Reversal.


Sorry yes it's an internegative. I didn't mean to suggest you could make prints directly with it but that's probably the way my post sounded.

You say this would be no use for 7240 tho? Kodak are suggesting it to make internegs from 7240 on their site, is this just cause they have the formulation and figured it would do for 7240 now there is no ekta commercial do you think?

love

Freya

Edited by Freya, 03 January 2006 - 06:56 AM.

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#8 Sam Wells

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 11:00 AM

Freya - Clive is technically right, flashing the VNF camera film controlled the contrast better.

Having said, I have had 7240 printed via 7272 to positive print. It looked "ok" but I was never a 7240 fan anyway.

7240 post flashed & printed on Kodachrome 7387 could look pretty good back in the Dino Days.

7240 and all VNF are discontinued stocks, I'm not sure why pursuing this line.

-Sam
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#9 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 01:48 PM

EASTMAN Color Internegative II Film 5272 / 7272 would be the usual choice for making internegatives from color reversal originals:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.6.4.6&lc=en

It would not be unheard of to use a fine grain, low speed camera negative film as an internegative, for example 7201:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.4.4.4&lc=en

Since 7272 was originally designed for the lower contrast reversal camera films like ECO 7255 and 7252, you may find better results if the lab preflashes the stock to reduce the shadow contrast somewhat. Flashing will also help reduce shadow contrast if you use a camera negative film as an internegative. Pull processing may also help reduce overall contrast.

Again, the projection contrast color reversal camera films (like VNF and KODACHROME films) were designed primarily for direct projection and for use as newsfilm on older vidicon telecine chains, so they are not ideally suited to duplication via internegative.
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