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#1 Filip Plesha

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 12:43 PM

I'm almost embarassed to ask such a stupid question,
but since I've wasn't around long enough to remember...

Many old films from 50's and 60's show browhish shadows in video, and the whole image can sometimes
be somehow brown.

Here is my theory, but I'm just guessing:
I assume this is due to fading because shadows are where the emulsion is most thin, and the thin parts of the emulsions are the first to dissapear in fading, and the yellow layer is the first to go, so in shadows the yellow layer is compleatly lost taking the cyan color (when reversed) compleatly from low densities (shadows).
Normally it would be corrected in video grading, but the information is lost compleatly, so the shadows only have red information (from cyan and magenta layers) to work with in timing, and there is nothing to be done

Now is that right or is it simply that old filmstocks had a brown tan in the shadows?
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 02:00 PM

Actually old negatives tend to go blue in the shadows when you make a new print where you correct for the fleshtones. I guess the fading of the yellow dye layer for some reason causes you to add more blue to the image?

Old prints tend to go pink because of the fading of the yellow and cyan dyes. So you may have seen a transfer from a faded print where they couldn't get the magenta cast out of the image.

You'll notice in restoration work of old Eastmancolor negatives, if they are not using b&w seps, that the shadows and dark hair tends to pick up a blue-ish haze. I saw a new 70mm print of "Patton" off of the original 65mm negative and I could see some of that blueness creeping into the blacks.

Now if there has been some overall fading, any attempt to warm up the image may result in a brown-ish look.
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#3 Filip Plesha

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 02:40 PM

"Old prints tend to go pink because of the fading of the yellow and cyan dyes. So you may have seen a transfer from a faded print where they couldn't get the magenta cast out of the image."


No, no, magenta is magenta, this is yellow cast I'm talking about (which looks brown when dark)


Let's just think hypothetical. If you had a negative with a really faded yellow layer, the thin parts of the negative (shadows) are gone totally, the midtones and highlights have equally lost density.
You have a gray card in the shot, and you corect for the gray card. The result?
You have restored some blue information so now midtones and highlights have the right amount of blue in them. But the shadows were gone, and the computer can't interpolate something from nothing, so the shadows stayed faded because they are compleatly lost. In that case they would stay yellow because there is no blue information in them at all.

Well something comes to my mind. A printer light is quite different from the classic computer's "color balance" setting.

Here is an example:
there is an electronic image, and the blue chanel is empty (black). If you change color balance to blue the image will just get darker because there is nothing in the blue layer.
But a printer changes color balance by diming the colored lights, so when you dim one light and there is nothing in the yellow layer, the printer "invents" the blue chanel (turns the blue chanel from black to grey)
The result would be a blue haze in the image because the blue component of the image is pure grey with no detail.
So in case of a negative with dissapeared yellow dye (blue color) from shadows, the blue haze would appear in shadows.
Perhapse this is what you saw.

But since a basic photoshop color balance system doesn't touch pure black and pure white, the shadows stay faded.

Well to sum it up, the logic would say that prints would have a blue haze in shadows and video transfers would still have brown shadows. Now this theory fits your observations on prints, and what I saw in MANY transfers.
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#4 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 02:50 PM

You'll notice in restoration work of old Eastmancolor negatives, if they are not using b&w seps, that the shadows and dark hair tends to pick up a blue-ish haze. I saw a new 70mm print of "Patton" off of the original 65mm negative and I could see some of that blueness creeping into the blacks.


---This is more so with internegs. The high lights will print green with the blacks deep blue.

You'll see this most often in the opticals in an old film. The Films Inc prints of Fox CinemaScope went noticebly green at fades and dissolves.

---LV

I'm almost embarassed to ask such a stupid question,
but since I've wasn't around long enough to remember...

Many old films from 50's and 60's show browhish shadows in video, and the whole image can sometimes
be somehow brown.

Here is my theory, but I'm just guessing:
I assume this is due to fading because shadows are where the emulsion is most thin, and the thin parts of the emulsions are the first to dissapear in fading, and the yellow layer is the first to go, so in shadows the yellow layer is compleatly lost taking the cyan color (when reversed) compleatly from low densities (shadows).
Normally it would be corrected in video grading, but the information is lost compleatly, so the shadows only have red information (from cyan and magenta layers) to work with in timing, and there is nothing to be done

Now is that right or is it simply that old filmstocks had a brown tan in the shadows?


---I recall that in the 60s prints of some European movies would have slighly brown blacks and shadows.
I think these were Technicolor movies.
It was not an unattractive look. slightly warm, without an orange cast.

---LV
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#5 Filip Plesha

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 02:55 PM

I recall that in the 60s prints of some European movies would have slighly brown blacks and shadows.



Well considering the thoughts from the previous post. Those prints must have been printed without compensation for yellow fading, because compensating would introduce a blue haze to parts of the image where the yellow layer is compleatly gone.
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#6 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 03:38 PM

Well considering the thoughts from the previous post. Those prints must have been printed without compensation for yellow fading, because compensating would introduce a blue haze to parts of the image where the yellow layer is compleatly gone.


---These were new prints of then current films when I saw them and wondered about the brownish shadows.
and they might have been IB prints.


---LV
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#7 Filip Plesha

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 03:55 PM

---These were new prints of then current films when I saw them and wondered about the brownish shadows.
and they might have been IB prints.
---LV



New films? Well that's a different story. Well then what you saw either had something to do with the dye transfer process (if they were IB prints), or those old filmstocks really did have a cast in shadows

Edited by Filip Plesha, 10 January 2006 - 04:00 PM.

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The Slider

rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

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Wooden Camera

Aerial Filmworks

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Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineLab

Metropolis Post

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