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Freezing Recanned Raw Film Stock


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#1 John Hall

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 06:36 PM

I was recently given 400ft of recanned 5248 (EXR 100t).
It had been sitting in a cool closet in the basement of a studio since September 2003.
I didn't have much hope for it, but I took it to Deluxe to be snip tested, and to my surprise and delight, it passed (R.19, G.53, B.94).

Right now the film is in my fridge, but I won't be able to shoot it for some time. I don't want to risk letting this film fog, so I am considering moving it to the freezer, as it might be a year before i use it.

I've already read about freezing stock on this forum and on Kodak's website:

http://www.kodak.com....11.12.10&lc=en

http://www.cinematog...c=6859&hl=freez

My concern though is that this is a recan, and it has been stored in less than ideal conditions (although it hasn't yet resulted in film fogging).

Would it be inadvisable to freeze film that has such a history?
Will keeping it in the fridge likely suffice for the next 8-12 months?

Thanks
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#2 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 14 January 2006 - 08:55 PM

I was recently given 400ft of recanned 5248 (EXR 100t).
I didn't have much hope for it, but I took it to Deluxe to be snip tested, and to my surprise and delight, it passed (R.19, G.53, B.94).
Would it be inadvisable to freeze film that has such a history?


As long as the can is well sealed, you may as well store ot as cold as you can, unlike food, film does not seem to mind being frozen and re-frozen, as long as it is allowed to warn up before you break the seal. Frozen film will take over night to be sure, refigerated a few hours. I sometimes use one of those Bag sealers used for Frozen food to add an extra mosture barrier in the freezer.

I would expect New 100T to last 3 years or more in the frezzer, and less time in the fridge. I tend to freze anything I am not going to use in teh current month, and transfer it to the fridge a few days before I plan to use it.
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#3 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 09:35 AM

I was recently given 400ft of recanned 5248 (EXR 100t).
It had been sitting in a cool closet in the basement of a studio since September 2003.
I didn't have much hope for it, but I took it to Deluxe to be snip tested, and to my surprise and delight, it passed (R.19, G.53, B.94).

Right now the film is in my fridge, but I won't be able to shoot it for some time. I don't want to risk letting this film fog, so I am considering moving it to the freezer, as it might be a year before i use it.

I've already read about freezing stock on this forum and on Kodak's website:

http://www.kodak.com....11.12.10&lc=en

http://www.cinematog...c=6859&hl=freez

My concern though is that this is a recan, and it has been stored in less than ideal conditions (although it hasn't yet resulted in film fogging).

Would it be inadvisable to freeze film that has such a history?
Will keeping it in the fridge likely suffice for the next 8-12 months?

Thanks


Since the film has been handled and recanned, you can't really be sure it was properly equilibrated to lower humidity before resealing in the can. I would suggest keeping the film refrigerated, but not freezing it. If the film had picked up excessive moisture, freezing could risk ice crystal formation.
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#4 Daniel Stigler

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 10:27 PM

I was told by a lab technician that what really harms the filmstock are temperature changes. According to him recans should be kept at a constant, low temperature but should not be frozen.

A few weeks ago i shot a test with positive stock that was kept in a filled bathtub for the last 20 years. When overexposed 1 stop the images came out fine.
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#5 Greg Gross

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 05:43 PM

One must always remove film from cold storage and give it enough time to warm up to
the ambient temperature it will be used in. This prevents(moisture)condensation on the
film. I"ve done it with still film of all types for a lot of years and have never had a problem.
Have carried film in ice chests on real hot days with no problem. I just do not know with
the film you're talking about here. Would you be able to let it warm up to ambient temp-
erature,go in a dark room,cut say 100ft. off,load on to camera spool and shoot a test?
You could then develop it and have a look. Trouble is you could still have a problem some-
where down the line on the original spool. I forget now if you said negative or reversable.
I agree with John that you may have a problem due to re-canned film. Do you know the ex-
act history of film,prior to you receiving it? Never freeze film!!(unless somebody knows some-
thing I don't) It would be news to me, as film is going to contract and expand if you freeze it.

Greg Gross
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#6 Freya Black

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 06:17 AM

I was told by a lab technician that what really harms the filmstock are temperature changes. According to him recans should be kept at a constant, low temperature but should not be frozen.

A few weeks ago i shot a test with positive stock that was kept in a filled bathtub for the last 20 years. When overexposed 1 stop the images came out fine.



In a bathtub! For 20 years! I hope that they also had a shower! ;)

Seriously tho, do you know what the bathtub was filled with? Surely not water?

If it was reversal, wasn't overexposing 1 stop a problem?

love

Freya
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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 07:05 AM

Never freeze film!!(unless somebody knows some-
thing I don't) It would be news to me, as film is going to contract and expand if you freeze it.

Greg Gross


Lots of people freeze film, and it's supposed to not be a problem if you have sealed cans and keep the moisture away, as kodak seal the cans in a special humidity free environment. Of course if you have re-cans or short ends then the cans may not be sealed properly and the conditions inside may be the same as whatever was in there when the film was last canned!

love

Freya
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#8 Greg Gross

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 08:29 AM

Can you please refer me to person who is telling you to freeze film. Can you give me a
name a lab. They can call me at 717-233-9065(they may reverse the charges unless its
overseas)??

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#9 Daniel Stigler

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 09:41 PM

Seriously tho, do you know what the bathtub was filled with? Surely not water?

If it was reversal, wasn't overexposing 1 stop a problem?



I don't know about the storage in detail, but i'll ask my DP. He got the stock from a friend.

We shot a greycard and colorcharts at every stop the lens had to offer and found out that sensitivity of the film dropped to half the original rating. So when we're shooting we will "overexpose" 1 stop to get flat exposure.
(I'm sorry if this sounds a little clumsy. My technical english isn't the best...)
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#10 John Hall

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 01:28 AM

Can you please refer me to person who is telling you to freeze film.


This is from the Kodak website. Technical data for Vision 2 100t:

"Store unexposed film at 13°C (55°F) or lower. For extended storage, store at -18°C (0°F) or lower"

We shot a greycard and colorcharts at every stop the lens had to offer and found out that sensitivity of the film dropped to half the original rating. So when we're shooting we will "overexpose" 1 stop to get flat exposure.


I've never heard of film loosing sensitivity. People sometimes overexpose questionable film in order to push the image out of the toe of the film where fogging occours.

Thanks everyone for their advice. I'm just going to leave the stock in the fridge.
I'm trying to find a recan reseller who might take it in a trade for some 16mm stock.
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#11 Freya Black

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 04:25 AM

This is from the Kodak website. Technical data for Vision 2 100t:

"Thanks everyone for their advice. I'm just going to leave the stock in the fridge.
I'm trying to find a recan reseller who might take it in a trade for some 16mm stock.


I think leaving it in the fridge migt be a good idea, you might even want to make sure you have it all in sealable plastic freezer bags or whatever they are called, when in the fridge.

I must say that I had a disaster one day where I probably tried to overfill my tiny freezer and the door popped open in the night. Obviously the freezer started to defrost and there was water everywhere and it was very scary. I was so glad that I only had factory sealed cans and that they were all wrapped in that extra plastic layer. I don't even want to think about the possibilities otherwise. eeek!

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#12 Greg Gross

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 08:41 AM

You have never heard of film having a loss of sensitivity sir?
How about the aging of film with time? The expiration date on the can or box?
Do you really think I would shoot a wedding with expired film?

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#13 Robert Hughes

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 12:03 PM

Clip test first to see what condition the film is in. Age fogging is your biggest issue; if you derate the film by a stop and pull process it you stand a better chance of getting usable footage.
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#14 John Hall

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 12:05 PM

You have never heard of film having a loss of sensitivity sir?
How about the aging of film with time? The expiration date on the can or box?
Do you really think I would shoot a wedding with expired film?

Greg Gross



Like I said, from what I understand (and I may well be wrong), film does not "loose sensitivity" per se, but the fastest grains (which are sensitive to the lowest light) become slightly 'exposed' and create a non-uniform fog.
Shooters then overexpose the film to move the image out of this 'fogged' region of the toe.

While this could be considered 'loosing sensitivity', it's not strictly true. The film is still capable of resolving a properly exposed image when rated at its original intended ASA, the image will, however, possibly contain some of this fogging.

Obviously, the expiration date on the box indicates a date when the manufacturer believes the film is no longer safe to shoot without encountering fogging.

People shoot expired film all the time. This whole discussion has been about precautions people take when doing so.
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#15 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 12:09 PM

You can lose speed with old age, if the sensitizing chemicals become less effective in helping the silver halide grains form a latent image. Over a period of years, chemicals can change. These changes are greatly slowed by refrigeration.
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#16 Chris Fernando

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 01:57 PM

John,
Would you recommend taking factory sealed cans out of the refrigerator and "transitioning" them to the regular fridge for a few days, then leave them at room temp for a day or two before opening? This is stufff that was stored at room temp for about two years and been in the freezer for about the last month. As always, thanks for the help.
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#17 no_soft_shots

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 03:35 AM

i've had stock in my freezer for about 2-3 years which i'm about to shoot and after reading some of your comments i'm a little worried.

Most of it is 500T and recently I found that the cans at the bottom of the freezer were frozen together. I needed an icepick just to get the cans out.

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#18 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 04:29 PM

John,
Would you recommend taking factory sealed cans out of the refrigerator and "transitioning" them to the regular fridge for a few days, then leave them at room temp for a day or two before opening? This is stufff that was stored at room temp for about two years and been in the freezer for about the last month. As always, thanks for the help.


No, you just need to be sure that the entire roll has warmed up above the dew point before you open the can. Otherwise, you could get moisture condensation on the film. Most 35mm rolls take a few hours to equilibrate. 16mm rolls equilibrate faster.


i've had stock in my freezer for about 2-3 years which i'm about to shoot and after reading some of your comments i'm a little worried.

Most of it is 500T and recently I found that the cans at the bottom of the freezer were frozen together. I needed an icepick just to get the cans out.

no_soft_shots


You may want to run a quick test, to be sure there was no adverse effect from excess moisture or ice crystals. Finding rolls encased in ice is not a good sign. The tape on the cans may let water in, especially if the cans had been retaped.
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#19 seth christian

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Posted 27 January 2006 - 02:24 PM

http://www.kodak.com...th/frozen.shtml
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