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#1 Filip Plesha

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 06:58 PM

Can someone please check (if they have written sources) or tell me from knowledge wheather this film was printed in IB technicolor or on regular color print film?

Which reminds me: when did technicolor start making eastmancolor prints for general releases as an alternative to dye transfer?
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#2 santo

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 07:29 PM

The guy to answer most of your post is John Pytlak from Kodak.

As far as I ever remember reading, the prints were technicolor from Hammer films of this period.

An unusual question and an interesting one. Why does it matter to you? Are you trying to match the "look" or something?
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#3 Filip Plesha

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 08:37 PM

I think David might answer it too since he has that book with the list of technicolor films. I've been trying to get some room in my monthly wishlist to buy that book, but It seems classic DVD's always have a higher priority and the budget is limited.


Well the last Hammer film that I'm sure was printed in IB technicolor was "Dracula has risen from the grave", which was released in 1968. Now this film was released two years later, so there is a high probability that the prints were dye transfer, at least in Europe.

The reason I'm asking because for the last month or two I've been exploring Hammer productions and collecting info and DVD's

What inspired me to start collecting Hammer films were all the stories my mother used to tell me about when she was seeing films like "horror of dracula" in cinema when she was a teenager.
I was suprized to find out that here in former Yugoslavia, dye transfer prints were projected of such films.
Its funny how the thing she remembered most after almost half of century, are the deep technicolor reds of blood and Dracula's cape. Also funny how a layman avarage woman from the 60's generation of moviegoers can sit there and describe the look of prints as they were so many years ago, while modern generation doesn't even notice the colors as something that could be payed attention to.
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#4 santo

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 09:43 PM

She remembers because they were great films. How many people remember the garbage we have today? Will anybody remember garbage like the latest thing starring tabloid fodder like ... well, whoever. We are bobarded by coporate machine pushed nothings. No, of course nobody will remember the films or hyped-up nothing "stars" in them. But it is damn hard to forget real film personas like Christopher Lee or Peter Cushing. Legends like that last forever. They were ACTORS with CHARISMA.

Today we have top notch actors like Philip S Hoffman and a few others. Do we see any tabloid crap on them? Not really.

It's all a lot like rap/hip-hop. Hip-hop stars were brief in the late 80's/early 90's. The actual form of music died then, as slim as it was an art form. We have, today, eminem. That's it. Everybody else, EVERYBODY ELSE, is zilch. How much tabloid fodder does eminem generate in the big picture of things? Useless clowns who nobody will ever care about like 50 cent and p diddy get all kinds of coverage. And they've got nothing. There is nothing there.
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 21 January 2006 - 11:07 PM

Yes, "Taste the Blood of Dracula" (1970) is listed as a dye transfer release.

Technicolor was making 70mm Eastmancolor prints for Super Technirama 70 releases by the late 1950's.
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#6 Filip Plesha

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 05:01 AM

Yes, "Taste the Blood of Dracula" (1970) is listed as a dye transfer release.

Technicolor was making 70mm Eastmancolor prints for Super Technirama 70 releases by the late 1950's.


yes I know that, I ment 4-perf 35mm. When did Technicolor start making 35mm Eastmancolor prints for theather releases?

She remembers because they were great films. How many people remember the garbage we have today? Will anybody remember garbage like the latest thing starring tabloid fodder like ... well, whoever. We are bobarded by coporate machine pushed nothings. No, of course nobody will remember the films or hyped-up nothing "stars" in them. But it is damn hard to forget real film personas like Christopher Lee or Peter Cushing. Legends like that last forever. They were ACTORS with CHARISMA.

Today we have top notch actors like Philip S Hoffman and a few others. Do we see any tabloid crap on them? Not really.

It's all a lot like rap/hip-hop. Hip-hop stars were brief in the late 80's/early 90's. The actual form of music died then, as slim as it was an art form. We have, today, eminem. That's it. Everybody else, EVERYBODY ELSE, is zilch. How much tabloid fodder does eminem generate in the big picture of things? Useless clowns who nobody will ever care about like 50 cent and p diddy get all kinds of coverage. And they've got nothing. There is nothing there.



No, I'm talking about prints. Those people still remember and can describe how those IB prints looked like.
I think, not only does audience take colors for granted these days (doesn't care), but filmmakers care less too (not counting DP's which always seemed to have cared) . It all seems to have started in 80's, which was the peak of that mentality that abandoned beautiful presentations in favour of money.
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 11:53 AM

yes I know that, I ment 4-perf 35mm. When did Technicolor start making 35mm Eastmancolor prints for theather releases?


My quess is that they would have been processing and printing 35mm Eastmancolor almost right from the beginning since people shooting Eastmancolor probably would have wanted to see tests, dailies, workprint, answer prints, etc. in color before starting the dye transfer process (making matrices, etc.) Back in the day of three-strip, people had to live with b&w dailies and a few color slides made from select frames. So Technicolor probably could always make Eastmancolor prints; the question is whether they ever made batches of release prints that way. I would guess that it's possible for small print orders they would have considered not doing dye transfer and just used Eastmancolor. I suppose it's possible that in the 1950's they were sending any Eastmancolor print processing out to a lab like CFI (who did the early 70mm Eastmancolor printing.) But I would guess that by the late 1950's they would have been doing all Eastmancolor work in-house.

This is all a guess - the Technicolor book doesn't really talk much about Eastmancolor printing. I suppose another scenario is that color productions at the studio used in-house processing for dailies and only sent the final cut negative over to Technicolor for dye transfer print releasing, so there was less need for Technicolor to set up an Eastmancolor print processor at first.
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#8 Filip Plesha

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 02:42 PM

My quess is that they would have been processing and printing 35mm Eastmancolor almost right from the beginning since people shooting Eastmancolor probably would have wanted to see tests, dailies, workprint, answer prints, etc. in color before starting the dye transfer process (making matrices, etc.) Back in the day of three-strip, people had to live with b&w dailies and a few color slides made from select frames. So Technicolor probably could always make Eastmancolor prints; the question is whether they ever made batches of release prints that way. I would guess that it's possible for small print orders they would have considered not doing dye transfer and just used Eastmancolor. I suppose it's possible that in the 1950's they were sending any Eastmancolor print processing out to a lab like CFI (who did the early 70mm Eastmancolor printing.) But I would guess that by the late 1950's they would have been doing all Eastmancolor work in-house.

This is all a guess - the Technicolor book doesn't really talk much about Eastmancolor printing. I suppose another scenario is that color productions at the studio used in-house processing for dailies and only sent the final cut negative over to Technicolor for dye transfer print releasing, so there was less need for Technicolor to set up an Eastmancolor print processor at first.



One example being that moving trailer with a lab inside for making scope rushes from technirama negatives.


By the way, I didn't know studios were developing their own Eastmancolor negatives.
Didn't the big labs object having their titles "color by" put on films developed by unknown quality standards, specially since AFAIK at those days there were lots of variations in results from smaller labs for some reason ?
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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 09:29 PM

Some of the big labs were owned by the studios, Deluxe was created by 20th Century Fox, MGM had MetroColor. CFI was independent though. Don't know what Paramount, Columbia, or Universal did for color processing.
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#10 Filip Plesha

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 07:35 AM

Yea, I forgot about that.

As I understand Fox still uses the services of Deluxe as some sort of a tradition, even though they don't own the lab anymore (or do they?) right?
WB uses technicolor services today, right?
Also, I've heard that New line prints on Fuji print stock.


I'd like to use this thread to ask the same question for another hammer film:
"Plague of zombies". Is the title mentioned in the book?
It was developed by deluxe, but perhapse technicolor made a few prints too.
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#11 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 12:36 PM

There are various deals between the studios and labs, film stock manufacturers, post houses, etc. WB tends to go to Technicolor, Paramount to Deluxe. I don't know about Fox but I wouldn't be surprised if they favored Deluxe. Companies like Lions Gate go to whoever gives them a good deal for the picture, so for now, we're at Technicolor for "Akeelah and the Bee" even though Deluxe did our dailies.

Some companies have a deal with Fuji or with Kodak for print stock; WB has a sort of 70/30 split between Kodak and Fuj. It's all sort of annoying to me, but considering a feature may make 4000 to 6000 release prints, I can understand why they'd want a deal.

We're printing "Akeelah" on Fuji 3513 DI even though it was shot on Kodak (5212, 5205, 5218, 5229). This is partly because Lions Gate tends to release on Fuji but also because I actually prefer Fuji 3513 DI over standard Kodak Vision 2383 (richer blacks with the Fuji) and Premier 2393 (richest blacks) tends to be unaffordable.

Now if I were doing any sort of ENR-type work, I'd prefer Vision 2383 or something even less contrasty if possible. This is one reason why I can understand Spielberg / Kaminski releasing on standard Vision since the prints get the ENR treatment. But it's getting increasingly harder to get studios to pay for special treatment like that (releasing on Premier is cheaper than any ENR print.)
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#12 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 01:51 PM

yes I know that, I ment 4-perf 35mm. When did Technicolor start making 35mm Eastmancolor prints for theather releases?
No, I'm talking about prints. Those people still remember and can describe how those IB prints looked like.
I think, not only does audience take colors for granted these days (doesn't care), but filmmakers care less too (not counting DP's which always seemed to have cared) . It all seems to have started in 80's, which was the peak of that mentality that abandoned beautiful presentations in favour of money.


----'Rear Window' was released on eastmancolor prints from the OCN. Which is why the neg was so worn out.
Some source I read recently, but can't recall where, said that Hitchcock didn't like the poor sharpness of IB prints. Whether or not this is why 'Rear Window' was released on Eastmancolor I can't say.

The first Fox CinemaScope movies, 'The Robe' et al, were released on eastmancolor.
This is because Technicolor was having registration problems with the Cinemascope perfs AKA Fox holes.
The sharpness might have also been aproblem too.
Pathe sued Technicolor for putting its name on a different process, thus perpetrating fraud.
I never found out how the suit was settled. Pathecolor was, of course, eastmancolor.

Fox's ultimate solution to the problem was DeLuxe labs, which was a small east coast lab they already owned.

Technicolor came up with a major inprovement in sharpness for IB prints in '54 or '55.
Enough of an improvement, that thet referred to it as A new Technicolr process.

When I was at WRS, I had to work on the OCN and I/P of Hammer's 'The Scarlet Blade/ The Crimson Blade'. The OCN had the UK main titles, the I/P the US titles.
The OCN read: Technicolor Hammerscope.
The US: Hammerscope Eastmancolor by Pathe.

So some films get IB prints in one Market and Eastmancolor prints in another market.


---LV
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#13 Filip Plesha

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:11 PM

So, David, can you check then if the title "Plague of Zombies" is listed amont titles that were printed in Dye transfer?
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#14 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:54 PM

No, it's not listed.

Look, the book is in paperback for $30:
http://www.amazon.co...=books&v=glance
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#15 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:09 PM

So, David, can you check then if the title "Plague of Zombies" is listed amont titles that were printed in Dye transfer?


---It was definitely DeLuxe color in the US.
Released by Fox on a double bill with 'Dracula< Prince of Darkness'.
Was the later released in the US IB or DeLuxe color?


http://www.widescree...technicolor.htm


---LV
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#16 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 03:23 PM

---It was definitely DeLuxe color in the US.
Released by Fox on a double bill with 'Dracula< Prince of Darkness'.
Was the later released in the US IB or DeLuxe color?
http://www.widescree...technicolor.htm
---LV


It's not listed either ("Dracula, Prince of Darkness"), which is odd since it was apparently a 2-perf Techniscope film, at least according to the IMDB. But the book probably has some holes in the lists, or else I can't find them (titles are listed under the format and then alphabetically for each year, so it's somewhat of a jumble.)
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#17 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 04:58 PM

It's not listed either ("Dracula, Prince of Darkness"), which is odd since it was apparently a 2-perf Techniscope film, at least according to the IMDB. But the book probably has some holes in the lists, or else I can't find them (titles are listed under the format and then alphabetically for each year, so it's somewhat of a jumble.)


---I seemed to recall that the posters to it and 'Plague of the Zombies' didn't mention Technicolor.

So I was searching for posters in Webdom to verify that. Most were unreadable. But this Italian poster lists it as DeLuxe colore!

The link from the previous post is for a Technicolor announcement about the 1955 improvements in IB printing.

---LV


---I seemed to recall that the posters to it and 'Plague of the Zombies' didn't mention Technicolor.

So I was searching for posters in Webdom to verify that. Most were unreadable. But this Italian poster lists it as DeLuxe colore!

The link from the previous post is for a Technicolor announcement about the 1955 improvements in IB printing.

---LV


---Having trouble with the attachment.

Here's a link to Italian poster:

http://www.italica.c...cPrincTeneb.htm

---LV
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#18 Filip Plesha

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 05:08 PM

Anyone have any idea where could have those dye transfer prints be comming from to Yugoslavia?
The nearest technicolor lab was in Italy (which is a neighbour country), but did Technicolor Rome even have a dye transfer facility?
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#19 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 07:09 PM

Yes, dye transfer printing was done until the mid to late 1970's at Technicolor Burbank, London, and Rome. "Suspiria", often mistakenly referred to as being "shot in Technicolor", was a famous Italian film that was one of the last released in dye transfer prints.

The American Cinemateque and sometimes UCLA Archives runs dye transfer print festivals and screenings.

Jeff Joseph of Sabucat Productions, an archive of trailers, often organizes dye transfer print festivals.
http://www.sabucat.com/
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#20 Steve Wallace

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 11:12 PM

It's not listed either ("Dracula, Prince of Darkness"), which is odd since it was apparently a 2-perf Techniscope film, at least according to the IMDB. But the book probably has some holes in the lists, or else I can't find them (titles are listed under the format and then alphabetically for each year, so it's somewhat of a jumble.)

You and IMDB are right, I just checked the Dracula: PoD DVD. Shot in techniscope, technicolor.
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