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shooting 24 or 25 fps?


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#1 no_soft_shots

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 12:53 AM

Hi,

I'm shooting a 35mm feature film and I was wondering if we should shoot 24fps or 25fps?

We are hoping for a cinema release but it will also go to DVD and video release for sure!

What are to advantages and disadvanges between 24fps and 25fps?

We are shooting in Australia which has is 25fps pal standard but we are looking internatioanly.

any advice?

no_soft_shots
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#2 Joshua Reis

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 02:15 AM

Hi, I was in a similar situation when I had to film in Rome, but all the post and transfer was goign to take place back in the States . Being an international project, the client required a master be made for 1080 HD, NTSC, and PAL. Shooting 24 frames will protect you for a theatrical release whether you project from a print or any tape format with minimal headache. If you will be finishing on tape, 1080 24PsF HD (whether it be HDCAM, D5, or HDCAMSR) seems to be the "universal tape master". Going from 24 fps to 25 fps for a PAL master is just a matter of speeding up the audio 4% and making a slight pitch adjustment. Making a 29.97 NTSC master from 24fps (as performed in telecine) is made through a 3:2 pulldown, no audio adjustments are needed. I realise you are in a PAL country, depending on your budget for post, it may be better to do everyhting at 25 fps (becuase of the accessability of PAL post equipment for offline editorial) and slow the audio 4% if you ever have to deliver a 24 fps master, then 29.97 NTSC. Ultimately, I suggest talking with your post supervisior and producer to devise a post production workflow that will work with your resources and set budget. There are so many options out there that a complete post plan is wise, otherwise you may find yourself with some costly and unexpected conversions. I realize I come from a NTSC region. I'd be curious to see what other people from PAL regions recommend. I hope this provides some insight.
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#3 Max Jacoby

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 12:09 PM

Shoot 24 fps.

Cinema projection is 24 fps and tv/video is 25 fps. But going from 24 fps to 25 fps is less of a issue for sound than the other way round. And you will save 1 fps on top of that...
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#4 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 12:18 PM

Shoot 24 fps.

Cinema projection is 24 fps and tv/video is 25 fps. But going from 24 fps to 25 fps is less of a issue for sound than the other way round. And you will save 1 fps on top of that...


For a feature film shoot 24 fps. Shooting at 25 fps can add quite a few minutes to the final running time of the film when projected at 24 fps in the cinema and upset the overall pacing. It's quite noticeable if the story is slow paced to begin with.
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#5 Patrick Neary

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 12:34 PM

there are a number of BTS pix of Kubrick on "The Shining" where the camera is clearly marked 25fps, and I've always wondered why he would shoot 25 on a feature that was clearly theater-bound, and how many other films of his were 25fps? How often is 25fps used on non-US features?
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#6 Robert Edge

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 12:52 PM

You wil find recent comments from David Mullen and Stephen Williams on this issue here:
http://www.cinematog...showtopic=10999
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 01:45 PM

You wil find recent comments from David Mullen and Stephen Williams on this issue here:
http://www.cinematog...showtopic=10999


"The Shining" was shot at 24 fps -- probably they were shooting a shot of a PAL TV monitor, hence the label on the cameras "25 fps".

I remember reading in the AC article on "Alien" that DP Derek VanLint tried to convince Ridley Scott to shoot the whole movie at 25 fps since there were so many monitors on the sets, but they ended up shooting at 24 fps (don't know what they did about the monitors.)

I shot one feature at 25P (HDCAM) because there was going to be some PAL footage cut in, and the movie was going to be edited offline using PAL downconversions, and I was filming in a 50 hz country. But ultimately hardly any PAL footage was used and I probably could have shot in 24P.
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#8 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 01:54 PM

there are a number of BTS pix of Kubrick on "The Shining" where the camera is clearly marked 25fps, and I've always wondered why he would shoot 25 on a feature that was clearly theater-bound, and how many other films of his were 25fps? How often is 25fps used on non-US features?


I've shot film at 25 fps in the US, but whenever I was shooting under fluorescent lighting I'd change the camera to 24 fps to avoid flicker. Down side was that it involved sending these sound tapes to be transferred to mag film at 24 fps, but it was still cheaper than sending all the tapes (the 25 fps tapes could be transferred locally at a much lower cost).
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#9 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 08:41 PM

I initially thought Australia being PAL county, 25fps would be the go... and since the film is aiming at Australian release first and formorest that might be what needs to be considered.

I mean, as two options of having sped up PAL version and normal NTSC or normal PAL and slow NTSC, the second seems more logical.

I do like the idea of shooting 24fps though -1 less frame ey Paul (no_soft_shots)?

We might have to dig for this one a bit harder mate.
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#10 Patrick Neary

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 11:03 AM

I've shot film at 25 fps in the US, but whenever I was shooting under fluorescent lighting I'd change the camera to 24 fps to avoid flicker. Down side was that it involved sending these sound tapes to be transferred to mag film at 24 fps, but it was still cheaper than sending all the tapes (the 25 fps tapes could be transferred locally at a much lower cost).


these pictures were taken on the set of the bar in the ballroom, so maybe it was an issue with flouros. not to belabor the point, but on the "Making of" doc, there are a couple shots at the end, one in the hotel lobby and another in a hallway, where you can also see the 25fps sticker.
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#11 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 January 2006 - 02:13 PM

Hi,

The only counter-indication is that the solutions for putting 24p material onto PAL video at 25fps all suck. Personally I would be very tempted to shoot at 25 if you're posting in a PAL world, and just bear in mind the tendency of things to feel a bit stretched. But I've never done it for a feature.

Phil
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#12 no_soft_shots

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 03:09 AM

Thanks everyone.

I'll have to do a little more research before I commit.

Shooting at 24fps does mean i'm shooting the normal worldwide cimena relaese fps.

But with our electrical frequency running at 50Hz, 24fps it does limit my flicker free window. The camera we are using however does have an adjustable shutter.

Shoot 24fps saves 10sec per 400ft mag compared to 25fps. But at 25fps I can use any shutter angle.

The 10sec saving per mag is with a 4-pref 35mm camera. I could go to a 3-pref or 2-pref camera which would change everything.

And my shooting to screen time comparsions are
shooting a 10 min scene @ 24fps i'd end up with a 9.36sec scene at 25fps where as
shooting a 10min scene @ 25fps i'd end up with a 10.25sec scene projected at 24fps.

It makes you think doesn't it....

thanks

Paul (no_soft_shots)
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#13 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:19 AM

The factors that influence if I shoot 24 or 25fps are (in order)

1) Are we using HMIs | "Non Kino" Flos in the lighting rig
2) What country am I in - which determines electricity and sync rates - so in the US I shoot 24 and the UK 25
3) what does the post house find easier
4) what does the audio house find easier

thanks

Rolfe
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#14 Stephen Williams

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:46 AM

The factors that influence if I shoot 24 or 25fps are (in order)

1) Are we using HMIs | "Non Kino" Flos in the lighting rig
2) What country am I in - which determines electricity and sync rates - so in the US I shoot 24 and the UK 25
3) what does the post house find easier
4) what does the audio house find easier

thanks

Rolfe


Rolfe,

I think that sums it up perfectly.

Stephen
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#15 no_soft_shots

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 07:00 AM

thanks Rolfe!

Makes perfect sense too me too!

Paul (no_soft_shots)
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#16 dullataj

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 10:08 PM

it's no matter if you would llike to shoot in 24 or 25fps. But....please look at your Generate that it was supply for 110 or 220 V AC. if it is 110 V AC 60 HZ.....your Camera shutter angle is 180 degree .....please shoot with 24fps.....but if your generater supply out is 220V 50Hz.....Shutter Angle of Camera is 180 degree....please shoot with 25 fps......This basic when we shoot for TV Commercial (PAL) but when we will shoot for Movies.......such as my land is 220V AC 50 HZ.....Shutter Angle of Camera is 172.8 degree....Camera will rus at 24 Fps....

Best Regards,

Yoi Camera Corner Thailand
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