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Formats (in mm please!)


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#1 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 08:54 PM

Hello everyone !

I want to check some figures I have for some 35 mm particular formats, in mm, and a few questions about some of them.

- Super 35 : what are the values in that "technics" for 1.66, 1.85 and 1.37 ? For 1.37, the figures I have are 18.8/24.

- 3 perf : in super 35, ok it's 1.78 (24.9/13.9), but in 35 standard, I found the figures of 22/13.9 = 1.58 : 1...

Doesn't "3-perf" has another name, was there a patent ? I mean like Techniscope for 2-perf or do you say that if Techniscope is 2-perf, 2-perf is not necessarly Techniscope ?

By the way, I have 22/9.4 for 2-perf Techniscope, do you second that ?

Scope :

What is the aperture size (in millimeter) of the 35 mm neg ?

Figures I have are :

Panavision : 21.95/18.8 (projection : 21.3/18.15)

Cinemascope : 23.15/18.15

And, for 16 mm I have regular : 10.05/7.42 (projection : 9.7/7.26)

Super 16 : 7.49/12.4

I know I've found some different figures sometimes, so I want to get things clear by now...

Thanks to you all !

Sorry I don't post the last one in the 16mm section, but, I'm a sustaining member, hey... :P
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#2 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 09:34 PM

I'll have to give you the metric figures from the standards when I return to my office next week. In most cases, the SMPTE standards were developed with "English" units like inches. Likewise, the Panavision publication I have is in English units of measurement. As you know, 1 inch = 25.4 millimeters.

Film is unique. It may be nominally 35mm, but people usually refer to 90 feet per minute as the transport rate for 24fps, or 16 frames per foot when editing.

35mm film actually started out measured in inches. When George Eastman supplied the first film to Edison, it was from 2-3/4 inch roll film slit in half, or 1-3/8 inches wide. That's 34.925 millimeters, which was later rounded up to 35mm.
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#3 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 28 January 2006 - 09:52 PM

I'll have to give you the metric figures from the standards when I return to my office next week.


That's so very kind of you John.

I know I can translate inches to mm, but I don't want to take any risk in computing my calculator or anything that could put an error in my figures, since I want to print something for my students.

16 frames per foot when editing.


And that was one second of film in the silent era, 1 second per foot, when shooting 16 fps, am I right ?

That's 34.925 millimeters, which was later rounded up to 35mm.


That's funny ! sounds like the 29.97 instead of 30 fps with ntsc tv standard !

Do you know why or how this 35 mm meter value was defenetly used in an imperial measures country ?
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#4 Dominic Case

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Posted 29 January 2006 - 05:51 PM

SMPTE 59 shows the standard for camera aperture. Remember this is not the same as projected area, so it takes no account of 1.85, 1.66 etc.

Style A (non-anamorphic sound motion pictures) is 22.0mmx16.0mm (that's the so-called Academy frame)
Style B (Anamorphic sound motion pictures) is 22.0mmx18.59mm
Style C (Instrumentation - the "open gate") is 24.92mmx18.67mm

SMPTE 195 shows the projectable image area on prints - it's always a little less than the camera aperture (to avoid projecting hairs or ragged edges of gates)

Style A (non-anamorphic) is 20.96mm x 11.33mm (1.85:1); x 12.62mm (1.66:1); x 15.29mm (1.37:1)
Style B (Anamorphic) is 20.96mm x 17.53mm

SMPTE 96 shows dimensions for film shot for television

The 4x3 scanned area for standard TV is less than the cinema projected area: it is 20.12mmx15.09mm (and of course safe action and safe title areas are less still).

I can't lay my hands on the 16x9TV or 3-perf and 2-perf figures atm. I'm not sure that they are all blessed with officially sanctioned "standards" as the 4-perf dimensions are. And also I've carelessly left the tolerances out in the interests of clarity. Though it's important to the standards that some of these figures are "nominal" some have + tolerances but not - or vice versa (ie "at least") and some are derived from other primary standard dimensions (eg the width of the frame in the camera aperture is derived from the distance of each edge from one edge of the film). SMPTE doesn't publish these standards free on the internet (shame!) but they can be ordered as paper or CD-ROM copies from SMPTE

That's funny ! sounds like the 29.97 instead of 30 fps with ntsc tv standard !

To be prosiac about it, no it's for a different reason. 34.925mm is exactly equal to the "round" number of 1 3/8 in. The NTSC rate of 29.97 is deliberately NOT a round number, but 0.1% off the round 30fps: this was necessary for some obscure electrical engineering reason as it had to be a non-exact multiple of the mains frequency rate of 60Hz.

Do you know why or how this 35 mm meter value was definitely used in an imperial measures country ?

I have an idea that Pathe Freres had something to do with this, but others might have a definite answer.
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#5 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 29 January 2006 - 06:20 PM

Thanks a lot Dominic !

That's funny ! sounds like the 29.97 instead of 30 fps with ntsc tv standard !To be prosiac about it, no it's for a different reason


I had no doubt wheter they were related or not, it's just another "funny figure", for me. It would be off-topic here, but I would be interested into knowing why actually...

I have an idea that Pathe Freres had something to do with this, but others might have a definite answer.


I wish they would ! Very interesting too !

And thank's again for the time you took typing in the figures !

Regards.
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#6 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 03:10 PM

Hello everyone !

I want to check some figures I have for some 35 mm particular formats, in mm, and a few questions about some of them.

- Super 35 : what are the values in that "technics" for 1.66, 1.85 and 1.37 ? For 1.37, the figures I have are 18.8/24.

- 3 perf : in super 35, ok it's 1.78 (24.9/13.9), but in 35 standard, I found the figures of 22/13.9 = 1.58 : 1...

Doesn't "3-perf" has another name, was there a patent ? I mean like Techniscope for 2-perf or do you say that if Techniscope is 2-perf, 2-perf is not necessarly Techniscope ?

By the way, I have 22/9.4 for 2-perf Techniscope, do you second that ?

Scope :

What is the aperture size (in millimeter) of the 35 mm neg ?

Figures I have are :

Panavision : 21.95/18.8 (projection : 21.3/18.15)

Cinemascope : 23.15/18.15

And, for 16 mm I have regular : 10.05/7.42 (projection : 9.7/7.26)

Super 16 : 7.49/12.4

I know I've found some different figures sometimes, so I want to get things clear by now...

Thanks to you all !

Sorry I don't post the last one in the 16mm section, but, I'm a sustaining member, hey... :P


---The 23.15mm width for C'scope is for the 2.55/1 aspect ratio which is no longer used.

Technicolor and the ASC manuals gave .373" and 9.5mm for the height of Techniscope.
Examples I've seen have almost no frame line, some have an overlapped frame line.

Here's Panavision's listing:

http://panavision.com/aspect_ratio.php

and go to page 9 of the pdf of the camera catalog:

http://panavision.com/catalogs.php

Their height for 3-perf S35 camera aperture is 13.87mm.
I think Arri and aaton have 13.5mm.

---LV
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#7 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 03:24 PM

Thanks, Leo !

The Panavision pages are great (but they are in inches...)
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#8 Valeriu Campan

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 10:25 PM

Try the Aaton's page with information about their screens. All dimensions are given in metric values:
http://www.aaton.com...5/35screens.php
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#9 Laurent Andrieux

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 05:21 AM

Thanks, this is the ground glass dimensions, it has to be examined carefully since it's got all marked dimensions, another possibility for a mistake when typing to a text...

But that's very interesting anyway, though ! thanks a lot !
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Rig Wheels Passport

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Paralinx LLC

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

rebotnix Technologies

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

Metropolis Post

Glidecam

Broadcast Solutions Inc

The Slider

CineTape

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio