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hd camcorder (highend) vs hd cine cameras


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#1 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 29 January 2006 - 07:58 PM

Does anyone have comments or expirence w/both true hd camcorders and HD cine camera. Also I notice a dramatic drop this last year in the price of used sony hdw-700s and 900s I wonder if true HD for the masses can be far behind.

Edited by Capt.Video, 29 January 2006 - 07:59 PM.

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#2 Trevor Swaim

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Posted 29 January 2006 - 08:14 PM

I currently have no experiance with HD Cine cameras but have see quite a bit of footage and must say their is no comparison. I think that the price drop has more to do with the genesis and the D-20 coming to market than anything else.

HD for the masses? maybe, red.com. There is supposed to be a prototype and pricing info at NAB.
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#3 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 05:34 AM

Does anyone have comments or expirence w/both true hd camcorders and HD cine camera. Also I notice a dramatic drop this last year in the price of used sony hdw-700s and 900s I wonder if true HD for the masses can be far behind.



HDV is the consumer format for HD, past experience with DVD players etc. indicates that prices will drop in the longer term. There are single chip HDV cameras on the market at the moment.

The HDW 700 & F900s have been around for a while now, so you'll find the older cameras on the market. Also, the depreciation on camcorders is steep that the prices of the early cameras will now be noticeably lower.

There are so few Genesis and the D-20 cameras around that they won't have an impact on the pricing of the other cameras. They're also in different market sectors to HDW 700 & most F900s.
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#4 Will Novy

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 06:19 AM

HDV is the consumer format for HD, past experience with DVD players etc. indicates that prices will drop in the longer term. There are single chip HDV cameras on the market at the moment.

The HDW 700 & F900s have been around for a while now, so you'll find the older cameras on the market. Also, the depreciation on camcorders is steep that the prices of the early cameras will now be noticeably lower.

There are so few Genesis and the D-20 cameras around that they won't have an impact on the pricing of the other cameras. They're also in different market sectors to HDW 700 & most F900s.


The price drop for the sony HDV cams is because of the new release to the HVX200 from panasonic. Since the HDV uses the "24p" developed by panasonic, and panasonic now uses P2 cards, business is lost by sony. Im not sure, but have heard that the new cannon XL3 is suppose to have Cmos chips in them instead of CCD, which will mean, if it is true, that once those hit the market and give the camera a 13 stop range, prices in the HVX200 will go down. Usually once a high generation of consumer camera hits the market, the previous cameras dont do so well and the pricing drops. just my thoughts.
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#5 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 06:47 AM

The price drop for the sony HDV cams is because of the new release to the HVX200 from panasonic. Since the HDV uses the "24p" developed by panasonic, and panasonic now uses P2 cards, business is lost by sony. Im not sure, but have heard that the new cannon XL3 is suppose to have Cmos chips in them instead of CCD, which will mean, if it is true, that once those hit the market and give the camera a 13 stop range, prices in the HVX200 will go down. Usually once a high generation of consumer camera hits the market, the previous cameras dont do so well and the pricing drops. just my thoughts.


It's still too early to say what the impact of P2 going to be; there's extra kit required to download the still rather expensive P2 cards when you're out shooting. XDCAM has made a bigger impact in the SD market and I suspect the new XDCAM HD format will be giving Panasonic a hard time. 24p has an important place in the indie market and JVC has been trying to address the demand. It's unfortunate that the original HDV specs didn't include 24p.

Until the price of the P2 cards drop, I can't see them making much progress in the price driven consumer market, they're more for the professionals.

I suspect that the 13 stop dynamic range is way in the distance for prosumer cameras; the latest high end HD cameras would love to have that range.
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#6 Will Novy

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 07:24 AM

It's still too early to say what the impact of P2 going to be; there's extra kit required to download the still rather expensive P2 cards when you're out shooting. XDCAM has made a bigger impact in the SD market and I suspect the new XDCAM HD format will be giving Panasonic a hard time. 24p has an important place in the indie market and JVC has been trying to address the demand. It's unfortunate that the original HDV specs didn't include 24p.

Until the price of the P2 cards drop, I can't see them making much progress in the price driven consumer market, they're more for the professionals.

I suspect that the 13 stop dynamic range is way in the distance for prosumer cameras; the latest high end HD cameras would love to have that range.


I agree, I think that any video camera out there right now, would love to have a 13 f-stop range. As for the P2 cards, they are expensive, but instead of using them to capture, the alternative way is to just capture onto the a external harddrive, and a 120 gig harddrive doesnt run as much (compaired to space wise) as the P2 cards, and holds more room than any P2 card out there to date. The only advantage to the P2 card is it lets you recored HD resolution without having to be close to a plug for your harddrive. I havent heard much about the XDcam, but for the camera itself, the HVX200 seems to be the better by (so far) in low priced HD consumer cameras
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#7 Ted Johanson

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 03:53 PM

Im not sure, but have heard that the new cannon XL3 is suppose to have Cmos chips in them instead of CCD, which will mean, if it is true, that once those hit the market and give the camera a 13 stop range, prices in the HVX200 will go down.


A 13 stop range?!!! Where did that specification come from? What are we getting now with the typical pro-sumer video cameras; 7 stops, maybe 8 stops, tops?

Let's consider one of the options for increasing dynamic range on an electronic chip: increasing the electron well capacity. Because one extra stop of light has twice as many photons, and because to capture twice as many photons means you need twice the electron capacity...in order to increase the dynamic range of each "pixel" by 5 stops(!), the electron capacity will need to be 32 times greater! If it's 6 stops, it needs to be 64 times greater, etc.

Perhaps those electron wells are akin to the TARDIS from the British television series "Doctor Who". Small on the outside, big on the inside, eh?

Let's consider another option. It is possible to multi-sample each pixel for every frame. The first sample is an underexposure, the second is an overexposure. The first captures the highlight detail, the second captures the shadow detail. The two exposures are then blended together for an increased dynamic range effect. There are three ways to achieve the under/overexposure. The first option is to increase or decrease the sensitivity of each pixel accordingly. The second is to alter the exposure time accordingly. The third and most idiotic option is to install microscopic irises over each pixel. All three options require the two exposures to be temporally offset. That would result in highlights being misaligned with shadows whenever there is motion. The second option (altering exposure time) would result in shadows having more motion blur than highlights. All three options remove the possibility of having a 360 degree shutter.

Another option is to use multiple sensors for one pixel. This approach will degrade accuracy of detail, and will compound the already existent detail sampling inaccuracies of Bayer pattern CFA sensors. This approach also results in reduced maximum resolution.

So exactly what is it about CMOS sensors that makes them so superior to CCDs? Oh, wait...I can answer this one! They are superior simply because they are used in the best digital SLRs.

A 13 stop range? I don't think so! The biggest reason for using CMOS sensors is their reduced cost.


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#8 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 07:25 PM

Hi,

> It is possible to multi-sample each pixel for every frame.

That's what Arriscan does, and it works nicely because nothing's moving inbetween exposures.

> The second is to alter the exposure time accordingly.

That's what you do, yes. Although ironically, shorter exposure times (or at least the consequent faster readout times, to be supremely pedantic) tend to increase the tendency of the chip to flare vertically around hotspots.

> Another option is to use multiple sensors for one pixel.

Again, already done. I can't remember the manufacturer, but there was some pocket digicam which used a sensor that did this.

> So exactly what is it about CMOS sensors that makes them so superior to CCDs?

Principally, it's much easier to manufacture, and has better yeilds. Also, the ability to place additional circuitry on the same substrate as the photodiodes. This is mainly a manufacturing convenience, but there are real image quality benefits that can be realised by more efficient binning in the readout circuitry, and noise can be lowered by placing the output amps on the substrate. It's also possible to do things to a CMOS image sensor that lower image quality, mainly involving trying to put additional circuitry in the same area as the photodiodes, reducing fill factor and therefore dynamic range.

The biggest advantage of CMOS, though, as I see it, is that the more flexible manufacturing technology has far more places to go than the ancient PMOS process used to make CCDs. Quantum sensors with stacked RGB pixels are an exciting prospect.

Phil
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#9 Jim Murdoch

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 07:01 PM

Does anyone have comments or expirence w/both true hd camcorders and HD cine camera. Also I notice a dramatic drop this last year in the price of used sony hdw-700s and 900s I wonder if true HD for the masses can be far behind.

Unfortunately, as the sensors improve in quality, they start to show up the deficiencies of the attached lenses. And it's really hard to make high-quality lenses to work with the tiny sensors that are appearing in consumer camcorders.
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#10 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 11:26 PM

Unfortunately, as the sensors improve in quality, they start to show up the deficiencies of the attached lenses. And it's really hard to make high-quality lenses to work with the tiny sensors that are appearing in consumer camcorders.

Your right about that, glass is everything. Did anyone hear about those new expeimental lenses though, that were suppose to work like an organic lens and actually change shape. They're suppose to revolutionize camera design and allow for much better images from a smaller diameter lens
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