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Arri IIC Questions


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#1 Richard Boddington

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 07:06 PM

Hi,

I know there are lot of Arri IIC users here so perhaps you can help me out, as I have never used this Arri camera, I've only used the Arri III and the 435.

I'm thinking of picking one of these up for my own use.

Have a look at this motor on ebay....

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

Stupid question...that is the entire motor correct? It bolts onto the bottom of the camera, right?

Also how do you power one of these things? Is there a special cable and connector or can you use XLR?

Will this motor run off of 12V? Or is there a special battery for it?

Thanks if advance,
R,
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#2 Dan Goulder

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 07:34 PM

The item is improperly described. It's not a sync motor. It's a constant speed motor. It's not very usable if you're trying to sync dialogue.
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#3 Jeremy

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 07:45 PM

This does look like a constant speed motor. You need a special cable to plug into the two prongs pictured on the side.
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#4 ReadyTeddy

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 10:44 PM

It is a constant speed motor and will run off a 12 volt power source.

Although it's not a crystal sync motor, it doesn't do a totally bad job holding sync if you use it for short takes.

With digital post you can have your editor "line up" the sound. One trick I've used to make this a bit easier is to use two claps of the slate... the traditional one at the beginning of the take and one just ahead of the cut.

Unblimped, the camera still makes a lot of noise with this motor, though!
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#5 Richard Boddington

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 02:54 PM

12V eh? That's good news as I already have a 12v battery belt. I was thinking I would need to buy a 16v system to run this motor I was told.

Another dumb question, the IIC will go onto a tri-pod with the larger standard screw thread? When the motor is on the bottom where does the tri-pod go? In that flat area behind the motor? Or on the bottom of the motor, that would be kind of a strange spot????

Thanks
R,
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 03:05 PM

12V eh? That's good news as I already have a 12v battery belt. I was thinking I would need to buy a 16v system to run this motor I was told.

Another dumb question, the IIC will go onto a tri-pod with the larger standard screw thread? When the motor is on the bottom where does the tri-pod go? In that flat area behind the motor? Or on the bottom of the motor, that would be kind of a strange spot????

Thanks
R,


Richard,

There are some special tripods heads for the Arri II. Otherwise there is a flat base, then the motor is turned upside down and is on the right hand side of the camera. I remember needing a 16v battery but that was for a high speed motor. At higher speeds the IIc is not the most steady camera in the world!

Stephen
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#7 Dan Goulder

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 03:22 PM

It is a constant speed motor and will run off a 12 volt power source.

Although it's not a crystal sync motor, it doesn't do a totally bad job holding sync if you use it for short takes.

With digital post you can have your editor "line up" the sound. One trick I've used to make this a bit easier is to use two claps of the slate... the traditional one at the beginning of the take and one just ahead of the cut.

Unblimped, the camera still makes a lot of noise with this motor, though!

I'll reiterate. This motor is fine for MOS. However, for the extra time (and expense) spent in post trying to fix sync, you'd be better off investing in a crystal sync motor. Lining up with a clap on both ends of a take still isn't going to change the constant variations in speed that take place between those two claps. Having to slip the audio every few words can be a real pain, and still isn't going to look perfect.
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#8 Richard Boddington

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 04:35 PM

Dang! Special tri-pod head? Time to get out the welding torch and make my tri-pod mounting plate a permanent fixture on that camera :)

As for registration, so long as the registration is good at 24fps, I'd be happy with that.

Speaking of registration at 24fps, how is it on the IIC?

R,
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#9 Richard Boddington

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 04:58 PM

Ok, perhaps a IIC expert can have a look at my pic and tell me if there are threads where my arrow is pointing?

Ta
R,

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#10 Hal Smith

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 05:47 PM

[quote name='Richard Boddington' date='Feb 12 2006, 03:58 PM' post='90218']
Ok, perhaps a IIC expert can have a look at my pic and tell me if there are threads where my arrow is pointing?

I wouldn't call myself an expert but there is definitely a 3/8" threaded hole in my 2A/C (an Arri 2A with 2C internals) right where your arrow is pointing, there's also a 1/4" threaded hole forward of the motor. I've got an original Arri tripod head on the way from Sweden that I plan on using as an adapter to my O'Connor 50D head (search for item #7586632641 on ebay to get a look at it). It uses those two holes to secure the camera to the head. My sense of mechanical engineering says it would be a REAL bad idea to try to tie a 2A/B/C down to a tripod head with just the back hole, there would be much too much weight cantilevered off-center torqueing that screw. The least disaster to occur would be stripping the 3/8" threads, the worst would be watching your camera commit suicide falling on the ground.

Clive Tobin (www.tobincinemasystems.com) apparently still has some of his crystal motors for the 2A/B/C series left. They're not cheap but they give one the ability to sync ADR sound in post and his motor will mount on a tripod head. One went for around $900 not too long ago on ebay, I believe Clive asks around $1.6K for a new one. Cinema Electronics makes the professional standard crystal motor for Arri 2's but they're around $6K - one definitely needs a Hollywood size budget to play around with them!

I'm an Electronics Engineer by trade and I've been thinking about trying to kludge a tach signal out of an Arri wild motor and use it to speed control the DC running the motor. The Arri motor speed is controlled by a rheostat so running the rheostat all the way up and varying the DC going into the motor will proportionately control the motor's speed. Closing the "loop" with a phase lock loop for crystal sync referenced speed will be pretty simple if one can derive some sort of tach signal from the motor. Has anyone out there heard of a successful attempt at this idea?

Edmond, OK
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#11 Andy Sparaco SOC

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 05:59 PM

Ok, perhaps a IIC expert can have a look at my pic and tell me if there are threads where my arrow is pointing?

Ta
R,



The 2 ABC used a cradle that the camera stood on. There were two locking bolts the front of the camera slide into. The hole at the rear is for the tie down knob which is at the rear of the cradle. The knob ties down the camera. The entire camera/cradle goes onto the tripod head. This was a rapid release system so you could go from tripod to hand held easily. Remember the 2 C was a newsreel camera. The cradles appear used on ebay all the time sometimes attached to a tripod head.
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#12 Richard Boddington

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 06:51 PM

Excellent, thanks guys.

I too was concerned about the weight imbalance if in fact there was that 3/8 thread at the rear of the camera. Which it seems there is. That 3/8 thread is a pretty heavy duty screw though, so maybe a locked off shot secured from the back would be ok? Especially if it can thread deeply into the camera.

[Once nice thing about the Konvas 1M and 2M, the 3/8 thread is dead centre and the motor sits off to the side so it does not get in the way.]

My other option is that I know my local rental house has lots of those speed plates for the IIC. So I could skip the motor all together and just rent the unit when I need it.

Although it seems like a waste of money on a rental if I only need the camera for MOS non-sync 24fps, which it seems that motor can deliver.

I read some of the other threads on the registration of the IIC at speeds above 40 fps. It seems from those posts that the registration is hit and miss, some cameras good, others not so good.

Thanks
R,
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#13 Richard Boddington

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 08:09 PM

Ok, I've got the motor and I found the cable for it.

Now all I need is the "flat base motor adapter" that's the little geared thingy that moves the motor to the side and allows for tri-pod mount, correct? Without the motor hanging down in front?

If any one has one or knows where I can get one, please let me know.

Ta
R,
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#14 Andy Sparaco SOC

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 08:59 PM

A side motor adapter was sold on ebay in the last 24 hours. If you are patient you will find one there
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#15 Richard Boddington

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 10:40 PM

Hi Again,

Is this "thing" by any chance the cradle for the Arri IIC when config with the motor under the camera?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

The picture is not the best, but maybe one of you will recognize it?

Ta
R,
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#16 Stephen Williams

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 03:15 AM

I read some of the other threads on the registration of the IIC at speeds above 40 fps. It seems from those posts that the registration is hit and miss, some cameras good, others not so good.

Thanks
R,


Richard,

I have seen HS 2C's steady at about 80 FPS but a worn one may not be steady at 32 FPS. Don't expect the registration to be in the Mitchell dual pin class. In the past we used the 2c when no optical work was required, but took a Mitchell for background plates.

Hope that helps. Why do you want a 2c when you have a Konvas?

Stephen
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#17 Luke Prendergast

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 04:26 AM

if one can derive some sort of tach signal from the motor. Has anyone out there heard of a successful attempt at this idea?


It's easy to pick off the back EMF spikes caused by the motor on the DC power line. A simple RC high-pass filter and a schmitt trigger, maybe a very low inline resistance to up the spike level, and you have a tach output. Given the rheostat you probably won't need the added resistance.
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#18 Andy Sparaco SOC

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 08:12 AM

Arri.jpg

Hi Again,

Is this "thing" by any chance the cradle for the Arri IIC when config with the motor under the camera?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

The picture is not the best, but maybe one of you will recognize it?

Ta
R,


No that is the pivot for a shoulder mount. Here is a photo from a search of ebay completed auctions. In this photo the cradle is attached to a ball head
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#19 Richard Boddington

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 09:48 AM

Ah yes thanks, asparaco, now I see exactly what you mean. There's the bolt at the back and the "shaft" in front for the motor to descend into. Got it.

Stephen, in answer to your question, I need to get a IIC so I can put better glass in front of the film. I have found a IIC with a PL Mount installed on it, which is what I need for field work. Then all I have to do is rent a $25,000 prime lens and improve the quality of my imagery. The Konvas is great, but it has many limitations. Mainly I can't put the variety of lenses on it that I want to, and I can only get good registration using the mini mags with 130ft of film. I have the 400ft mags, and the registration is ok, but not perfect.

There are so many accessories available for the IIC, that are not available for Konvas products. Plus I can get the IIC serviced at any of the rental houses in Toronto, the Konvas needs to go back to the Ukraine if it needs work.

I will thoroughly test the new IIC when it arrives before I sell off my Konvas gear.

Ta
RDCB
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#20 Dimitrios Koukas

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 10:06 AM

Richard, as far as I can remember the ARRI IIC has a bakelite pull down claw (I hope that I am spelling the been made material correctly), wich is worn really easily.You should check it's thikness.
Dimitrios Koukas
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