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#1 Alex Haspel

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 12:36 PM

hello friends...

i might be DP'ing a 35mm feature, if it comes to beiing made....
nothing is fixed right now, but i was asked to put together a 35mm camera package of my choice.
the format question is not yet fully decided, so i'll just go through all the cameras that fulfill the other requirements.

i already DP'ed and operated the pilot for this project, which was originally planned as a tv series.
the pilot was shot on DvCam and the team will be mostly be the same, except for a film experienced first AC,
so i can make some judgements about the workflow and the requirements concerning the camera package.

.)the camera should be quite noiseless, since sound is going to be recorded simultaneously.
.)it should be light, compact and good for handheld work.
.)it should be changeable to handheld rather quick, so a 1000ft shoulder magazine would be nice, so that one can leave this on also for tripod/dolly work.
.)and we don't need any flashy technical klimbim, like ramps, we only need video assist...
.)and of course it should not be too pricey in rental.

cameras i thought of were:
.)the moviecam compact (the SL would be too noisy, wouldn't it?)
.)the arri 235 (how loud is it? couldn't find anything on the arri homepage)
.)the arricam lite
.)the Aaton 35-3 (but it seems to be rather noisy too)

i must admit to only have zero to limited 35mm experience equipment-wise , but i am am an fully eduacated photographer with quite a lot of 16mm experience.
so, what do you suggest?

thanks in advance,
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 01:50 PM

.)the moviecam compact (the SL would be too noisy, wouldn't it?)
.)the arri 235 (how loud is it? couldn't find anything on the arri homepage)
.)the arricam lite
.)the Aaton 35-3 (but it seems to be rather noisy too)


I usually have to shoulder a regular 35mm sync-sound camera for handheld work... did a whole movie like that with a Panaflex GII. And I'm not particularly athletic so it IS possible.

Out of your list, only the Arricam LT seems like it would be both quiet enough, reliable, and good for handholding. The Moviecam SL and Aaton-III are both borderline too noisy for close shooting handheld, but they may be fine if your sound person isn't picky.

There is also the Panaflex Millenium XL, but both it and the Arricam LT are pricey cameras, hence why I always end up shouldering a regular sync-sound camera. You might consider a Moviecam Compact as a good compromise. What I like about the Millenium is that it is modular and easy to quickly configure to handheld & steadicam mode. I haven't used the new Arricam equipment yet.
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#3 Max Jacoby

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 02:30 PM

You can forget about the 235, it is definitely an MOS camera. The Aaton 35 and the Moviecam SL are not very good for sync sound, especially in small rooms they tend to be quite noisy. Of the other cameras on your list, the Arricam LT is the best option, but also the most pricey. Otherwise the Moviecam Compact, like David said, is a good compromise. Although it is not my favourite camera (the video assist is not as good as the IVS on the Arris and somehow a camera which does not have a power button feels odd to me) but balances well on the shoulder (better than an Arri 535B, which is in the same price category).

As for cameras not your list, it all depends on how much handheld you want to do, if it's only now and then, you might also consider a 535B or a Platinum or GII.
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#4 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:16 PM

If you can afford them - the new Arricam's are really nice cameras to work with. The LT is perfectly balanced and a delight to operate handheld.
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#5 Kevin Zanit

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 09:00 PM

If I have a choice, I am definitely a Panavision person. I like their system. The GII, although not light weight, is workable, and cheap.

The Platinum is a step up, and also very nice.
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#6 Alex Haspel

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 09:54 AM

Thank you very much for you replies!


Panavision isn't really an option, because they aren't too popular around here. I don't even know of any here in Austria...

And as for the Arri LT.. it really seems like an extremely nice camera for this show, but uppon further research, i fear that it's going to be too pricey...
I seem to be coming to the conclusion that the Moviecam compact would be quite a good choice.

Another Camera that popped into my mind was the Arri 35BL, what do you think about this one?
How bulky/heavy is it compared to the moviecam compact?
We are most likely to shoot with Zeiss high speed primes, which should keep the weight and size rather low as i think...

I'd really be curious what those of you who worked with both the Moviecam Compact and the 35BL have to say about comparing those two....

oh, and what are the exact differences between the 35 BL I and IV? I couldn't find anything on the net about that matter...


thank you very much for you replies yet, and thank you even more in advance for those still coming!!

Edited by haspel, 15 February 2006 - 09:56 AM.

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#7 Stephen Williams

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 10:19 AM

Thank you very much for you replies!
Panavision isn't really an option, because they aren't too popular around here. I don't even know of any here in Austria...

And as for the Arri LT.. it really seems like an extremely nice camera for this show, but uppon further research, i fear that it's going to be too pricey...
I seem to be coming to the conclusion that the Moviecam compact would be quite a good choice.

Another Camera that popped into my mind was the Arri 35BL, what do you think about this one?
How bulky/heavy is it compared to the moviecam compact?
We are most likely to shoot with Zeiss high speed primes, which should keep the weight and size rather low as i think...

I'd really be curious what those of you who worked with both the Moviecam Compact and the 35BL have to say about comparing those two....

oh, and what are the exact differences between the 35 BL I and IV? I couldn't find anything on the net about that matter...
thank you very much for you replies yet, and thank you even more in advance for those still coming!!



Hi,

The BL1 is much noisier, but can shoot 100 FPS, has no PL mount or video tap as standard. The BL4 is a much better and more modern camera but will cost far more to rent. Many early BL's have been upgraded by P+S technik, called BL 'Evolution' they tend to be a good option.

Stephen

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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 11:14 AM

Well, the Moviecam Compact is just going to be a little lighter than the Arri-BL, that's all. It's your shoulder.

Like I said, you can handhold anything if you really want to. Your original question was what the best camera was to handhold and shoot dialogue, but like most people on a budget, now you're basically settling for any standard 35mm sound camera that you will try and handhold, rather than get a specifically lightweight one.
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#9 Brad Grimmett

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 06:09 PM

I've never had a problem with the noise level with the SL. I've heard people complain and say that it's noisy, but my experience has been different. Maybe I've just been lucky and gotten quiet bodies. The Compact is nice as well, and lighter than a BL.
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#10 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 07:35 PM

BL's are tanks. Even the 535 is a tough job on a long day. But the worst of them all is the Arri III - great MOS camera in every other apsect, but useless to handhold due to the viewfinder placement - you end up with all the weight in your hands. It's like trying to lift a sack of potatoes on a straight arm for 10 hours - excruciating.
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#11 Josh Silfen

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Posted 09 April 2006 - 05:26 PM

I also have a potential upcoming 35mm feature with a fair amount of handheld work and have been thinking this subject myself. I searched the forum and found this thread. Some useful information here, but I have a few more questions. Does anyone (Steadicam operators maybe?) know specific weights of any or all the following cameras (camera body or body plus full 400' mag only since lens and accessories would obviously make a difference):
Arri 535B
Arricam Studio
Arricam Lite
Movicam Compact
Panaflex GII
Panaflex Platinum
Panaflex Millenium
Panaflex Millenium XL

Which, if any, of these cameras are available with a 3-perf movement? What does the Arricam Studio offer that the Lite doesn't? Does the Lite take 1000' mags as well as 400'?

Also, I am not a very muscular guy, and I'm wondering if anyone knows any specific back or shoulder excercises that might be good to train for having one of these cameras on my shoulder for several hours throughout the day. Does anyone know of any good household or easily obtainable items that one could put on their shoulder to approximate the weight and balance of a 35mm camera with 400' mag, lens, mattebox, etc?

Thanks a lot.
-Josh Silfen

Edited by Josh Silfen, 09 April 2006 - 05:28 PM.

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#12 Max Jacoby

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Posted 09 April 2006 - 06:35 PM

Of all these cameras, the Arricam LT and the Millenium XL are the lightest and designed with handheld in mind. The LT is about 8 kilos (body and shoulder magazine), the XL a tad heavier. All the other cameras on your list are kind of in the same weight category, around 11-12 kilos roughly.

As for the 3 perf movement, that is an option for the Arricams and the 535B as well as all the Panavision cameras that you mention. I am not sure if there is one for the Moviecam, I have never come accross one.

The differences between the Arricam ST and LT are quite small. The ST is more quiet, but the LT is still a very good camera for sync sound shooting. Otherwise the ST goes up to 60fps, while the LT does 40 fps. Both cameras have electronically adjustable shutters and LDS for instance. All the mags are interchangeable between the cameras, but the LT has ony 1 mounting position (at the back), while the ST has 2 (top and back). Most big shoots carry one of each, so you have the best of both worlds, but there have been some films like 'The Bourne Supremacy' that used 2 LTs for instance.
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#13 Josh Silfen

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Posted 10 April 2006 - 05:36 PM

Of all these cameras, the Arricam LT and the Millenium XL are the lightest and designed with handheld in mind. The LT is about 8 kilos (body and shoulder magazine), the XL a tad heavier. All the other cameras on your list are kind of in the same weight category, around 11-12 kilos roughly.

As for the 3 perf movement, that is an option for the Arricams and the 535B as well as all the Panavision cameras that you mention. I am not sure if there is one for the Moviecam, I have never come accross one.

The differences between the Arricam ST and LT are quite small. The ST is more quiet, but the LT is still a very good camera for sync sound shooting. Otherwise the ST goes up to 60fps, while the LT does 40 fps. Both cameras have electronically adjustable shutters and LDS for instance. All the mags are interchangeable between the cameras, but the LT has ony 1 mounting position (at the back), while the ST has 2 (top and back). Most big shoots carry one of each, so you have the best of both worlds, but there have been some films like 'The Bourne Supremacy' that used 2 LTs for instance.



Thanks. Anyone else have any info? Best ways to "train" for a handheld 35mm film?
-Josh Silfen
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#14 Dan Salzmann

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 05:15 AM

Arricam LT is great for handheld work. A BLIV is a real tank and way too big for me to consider as a handheld camera.
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#15 Thomas Chatelet

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Posted 13 April 2006 - 07:45 AM

Hi everybody

sorry for my first post (I just deleted), it has been edited accidentally.

I was saying that, depending of your shooting calendar the new aäton Penelope coming in july might be an option. It's a dead quiet 35 mm camera, 3perf and 2perf, very light, instant 400 foot magazine ...and priced like a 16 mm camera !
Beauviala (aäton CEO) added (in "Lumières - Les cahiers de l'AFC", #1, 2006) that there certainly will a 4perf "special edition" for the chinese market and for whom will ask for it.

And there is more. He also said that this product will be baroque. Understand hybrid. But this is off the subject and I'll tell you more about what I learned in the topic Why hello, Miss Penelope...

Thomas Chatelet

Edited by thomas.chat, 13 April 2006 - 07:48 AM.

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