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What's the story on 50D Neg?


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#1 Brian Rose

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 02:17 PM

I noticed that the 50D stock is no longer listed on Kodak's website. I had heard something a while back about 50D and the other films being replaced by the new Vision series, but I have not seen 50D Vision yet either. Does anyone know anything about this? I loved the color and saturation of that film, and I'd hate to think I'd be losing it!
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BR
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#2 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 02:46 PM

I noticed that the 50D stock is no longer listed on Kodak's website. I had heard something a while back about 50D and the other films being replaced by the new Vision series, but I have not seen 50D Vision yet either. Does anyone know anything about this? I loved the color and saturation of that film, and I'd hate to think I'd be losing it!
Best,
BR


The new Kodak VISION2 50D Color Negative Film 7201:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.4.4.4&lc=en

Yes, it has the VISION2 "look" with better neutrality up and down the scale, and a very slight decrease in contrast. The finest grain of any motion picture film available.

Still might be some 7245 available:

http://www.kodak.com...PCN010606_Q.pdf
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#3 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 06:00 PM

I loved the color and saturation of that film, and I'd hate to think I'd be losing it!


Is there any hope that kodak will come out with a new stock for all those who can't ad Saturation and Contrast in DI?
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#4 Andy_Alderslade

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 08:12 AM

The new Kodak VISION2 50D Color Negative Film 7201:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.4.4.4&lc=en

Yes, it has the VISION2 "look" with better neutrality up and down the scale, and a very slight decrease in contrast. The finest grain of any motion picture film available.


John

Is there any chance that film will ever come out for Super 8
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#5 Sam Wells

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 10:00 AM

Is there any hope that kodak will come out with a new stock for all those who can't ad Saturation and Contrast in DI?


Or who choose not to.

I'll sign the petition.

-Sam "Unhappy" Wells
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#6 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:22 PM

Another question: is it possible to get more saturation out of Vision2 while going the optical path? Like using different Print- or IntermediateStocks, push or pull, or whatever?
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:30 PM

Another question: is it possible to get more saturation out of Vision2 while going the optical path? Like using different Print- or IntermediateStocks, push or pull, or whatever?


The best thing would be to go for some slight overexposure, print down, and use Vision Premier print stock (which is not available in 16mm I think, unfortunately). That would have the biggest effect on color saturation outside of using colorful production design, filtration, lighting, etc.

Beyond that, maybe pushing a stop would make the colors slightly more punchy, for example, expose as rated, push one stop, and then print down. But I'd want to test that theory. I've seen it work in still photography though for making the colors a little stronger. But that trick would be in addition to printing on Vision Premier.

You can get radically shifted but stronger colors -- and much higher contrast -- in the intermediate stage, like using print stock as an IP, or using reversal stock as an intermediate, but there would be other artifacts plus the extreme increase in contrast, plus costs, and in the case of reversal, you'd have to use an optical printer. I saw a test at FotoKem where they used print stock as an IP and the image looked almost like cross-processed reversal, but slightly softer (and dirtier).
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#8 Filip Plesha

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:36 PM

Yes, it has the VISION2 "look" with better neutrality up and down the scale, and a very slight decrease in contrast. The finest grain of any motion picture film available.


You say "very slightly" lower contrast than '45. Does that mean it has more contrast and saturation than other vision2 stocks?
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#9 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 01:45 PM

The best thing would be to go for some slight overexposure, print down, and use Vision Premier print stock (which is not available in 16mm I think, unfortunately). That would have the biggest effect on color saturation outside of using colorful production design, filtration, lighting, etc.


I was mostly thinking about landscapes, hard to get that production design more colorfull :D

Beyond that, maybe pushing a stop would make the colors slightly more punchy, for example, expose as rated, push one stop, and then print down.


Pushing should increase contrast as well, and since 7201/5201 has the finest grain ever it shouldn't be to visible even pushed, maybe that's the way to go...

thanks for all that adwise :)
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#10 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:22 PM

You say "very slightly" lower contrast than '45. Does that mean it has more contrast and saturation than other vision2 stocks?


It matches the other Vision-2 line up (excluding Expression 29) in terms of contrast & saturation.

However, there are a few people who claim that the two daylight-balanced stocks ('01 and '05) are a hair higher in contrast than the tungsten Vision-2 stocks. I haven't found this to be so, but an ASC member told me that he advised Kodak early in development to make '05 a hair more contrasty because it was most likely to be used in overcast, low-light daylight, dusk, etc. and it might as well be more contrasty or else he would just as well use '18 in those situations. I don't know how closely Kodak followed his advice. My eyes tell me that '05 looks like all the other Vision-2 stocks, and so does '01, but in a side-by-side comparison with the tungsten stocks, they may be very slightly snappier looking for all I know. I remember in Kodak's comparison of all their EXR & Vision stocks that for some reason, 5245 and 5246 had the blackest blacks so maybe there is some truth in this notion.

Definitely though 01 and 05 are lower in contrast and saturation than 45 and 46.
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#11 Sam Wells

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:28 PM

I was mostly thinking about landscapes, hard to get that production design more colorfull :D
Pushing should increase contrast as well, and since 7201/5201 has the finest grain ever it shouldn't be to visible even pushed, maybe that's the way to go...

thanks for all that adwise :)


Pushing 45 has little effect on grain. (nothing broken there)

Talked to the lab today, we're gonna try 7201 push 1. push 2. Really, I want them to crank up the temp until those chemicals are STEAMING ! :blink:

-Sam
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#12 Filip Plesha

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 06:04 PM

It matches the other Vision-2 line up (excluding Expression 29) in terms of contrast & saturation.

However, there are a few people who claim that the two daylight-balanced stocks ('01 and '05) are a hair higher in contrast than the tungsten Vision-2 stocks. I haven't found this to be so, but an ASC member told me that he advised Kodak early in development to make '05 a hair more contrasty because it was most likely to be used in overcast, low-light daylight, dusk, etc. and it might as well be more contrasty or else he would just as well use '18 in those situations. I don't know how closely Kodak followed his advice. My eyes tell me that '05 looks like all the other Vision-2 stocks, and so does '01, but in a side-by-side comparison with the tungsten stocks, they may be very slightly snappier looking for all I know. I remember in Kodak's comparison of all their EXR & Vision stocks that for some reason, 5245 and 5246 had the blackest blacks so maybe there is some truth in this notion.

Definitely though 01 and 05 are lower in contrast and saturation than 45 and 46.



I guess in cinematography, the "rule" that slower films have more contrast doesn't apply.
It must because MP films are always made to intercut well, while still films aren't.

In photography this nature of film is clearly visible. For example. Portra 160VC has considerably more contrast than 400VC, and there are many other "pairs" that show it too.
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#13 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:44 PM

Pushing 45 has little effect on grain. (nothing broken there)

Talked to the lab today, we're gonna try 7201 push 1. push 2. Really, I want them to crank up the temp until those chemicals are STEAMING ! :blink:

-Sam


For higher contrast and saturation, I would suggest exposing the 7201 normally (EI 50D), and trying a push-1 process. Push-2 is likely to be "overkill". A push process normally boosts contrast a bit, and gives the color-enhancing interimage effects more time to work their magic.
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#14 Sam Wells

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 09:11 AM

Thanks John, you've nearly talked me out of trying a push 3 for the moment :D

-Sam
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#15 Dan Goulder

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 06:35 PM

Are 5245 and 5201 close enough in look to intercut? In an admittedly subjective question, is 5201 going to make me miss my beloved 5245?
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#16 Mike Crane

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 07:25 PM

For higher contrast and saturation, I would suggest exposing the 7201 normally (EI 50D), and trying a push-1 process. Push-2 is likely to be "overkill". A push process normally boosts contrast a bit, and gives the color-enhancing interimage effects more time to work their magic.


Hi John,

Are we ever going to see 7201 in super 8? Is Kodak considering this?
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#17 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 09:57 PM

Are 5245 and 5201 close enough in look to intercut? In an admittedly subjective question, is 5201 going to make me miss my beloved 5245?


They could be intercut in the same production, but there are differences. Exposing them to the same scene and treating them identically, the 5201 will have the VISION2 "look" with a more neutral tone scale, slightly lower contrast and less graininess. For many, the new look is preferred. No finer grained stock on the market.

As noted, there are ways to get more "snap" out of 5201, to make it look more like 5245 when that is the look you want.


Hi John,

Are we ever going to see 7201 in super 8? Is Kodak considering this?


As mentioned before, it is certainly being considered. No decision is likely until the Super-8 production line moves back to the USA from Kodak's factory in France later this year, and testing can be completed.
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#18 Dan Goulder

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 10:56 AM

As noted, there are ways to get more "snap" out of 5201, to make it look more like 5245 when that is the look you want.

John, thanks for your response. Outside of push processing, is there possibly a rule of thumb for a telecine colorist to follow with 5201 in order to most closely match 5245 in terms of contrast and color? (Fedex just dropped off a roll of 5201 for testing.) Thanks.
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#19 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 11:59 AM

John, thanks for your response. Outside of push processing, is there possibly a rule of thumb for a telecine colorist to follow with 5201 in order to most closely match 5245 in terms of contrast and color? (Fedex just dropped off a roll of 5201 for testing.) Thanks.


If you give the 5201 a good "solid" exposure, a good colorist should easily be able to give you the "look" you want.
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#20 K Borowski

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 06:42 PM

A quick question John: I know that the Vision2 line is optimized for DI work. Is that a fancy way of saying that Kodak has lowered the contrast to make them more friendly, or is there more to it than that?

Thanks

~Karl
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