Jump to content


Angenieux 9.5mm lens has missing dogleg


  • Please log in to reply
14 replies to this topic

#1 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 16 February 2006 - 10:31 AM

It is a great huge lens, but I can't look through it.

It is a Angenieux 9.5 - 95mm zoom lens. It had a side viewfinder that was removed and now the hole is plugged with epoxy. Nevertheless, the lens seems to work. The problem is I don't have a reflex camera to look through the lens with.

It is a c mount, it has a special cup for C mount. Okay. It will fit onto Bolex cameras. It will fit onto a Auricon. A nonreflex H16 has the turret locking screw plug hole on the top, where the ficusing finder is. The lens pulls away from the camera, making it difficult to even focus at all. That camera does not have the chrome turret holder. It is missing on a T model. The H16RX1 goes fuzzy at 50mm or less. It is not a RX lens. The Auricon has no reflex viewing. It won't go onto a Cine Special or the magazine load Kodak 50 footers.

What to do?

Does anyone have a Auricon prisim to look through the lens on camera?

What other reflex 16mm cameras will take this lens?

We tried to put it onto a Eclare NPR (sp?) that is fitted with a C mount, but it didn't fit.

Thanks,

Michael Carter, now at Pittsburgh Filmmakers

Edited by Michael Carter, 16 February 2006 - 10:33 AM.

  • 0

#2 Brian Drysdale

Brian Drysdale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5070 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 16 February 2006 - 11:20 AM

I'm not sure if I'd want to mount that lens on just a C mount, it's a big lens.

Perhaps you could contact a lens technician about getting the reflex section removed and getting a more robust lens mounting fitted. You also lose a fair amount of light through that old dog leg reflex on a lens that's already T2.8.
  • 0

#3 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:40 PM

By any chance, does your lens answer to the name of "Lucky?"

Seriously, though, the 9.5-95mm is not a highly regarded lens. The author of the "16mm Help Book" (recommended) called it easily one of the poorest performing Angenieux zooms. It is very big and clumsy. Requires monster filters. It's too heavy for a C-mount without some additional support, even though that's the way Angenieux made it. And your lens has a beamsplitter in the optical path which steals light from the optical path but serves no purpose whatsoever. What's left of the finder is plugged with epoxy, so there's virtually no hope the lens can be restored to its original state, even if you could find the parts. I don't know if you really want to invest any more time or money trying to use this lens. Still you might try it on a Beaulieu R16 (one without all the power zoom/auto exposure goo-gaws). That camera has a flat front plate and will accept just about anything in a C-mount, as long as the rear element doesn't protrude too far (and on your zoom, that's not a problem).
  • 0

#4 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 16 February 2006 - 07:54 PM

Thank you very much.
It may be that the beam splitter inside was removed along with the dog leg and that was spoken of. If so more light comes through.
Yea, it's big, it's ugly, it's heavy, but it's wwwwwwwiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidddddddddddddddeeeeeeeeeeeee.


Isn't there some kind of device that you can screw a C mount lens onto and just look through the lens? It doesn't need to be a camera. There should have been a thing like that made at some time.

On the Auricon I put a piece of frosted 16mm film (sanded and cleaned) into the gate, then with a Bolex eyelevel viewfinder in hand, I can look at the image to focus and frame. But that is a real pain.

Auricon had made a gate viewer prisim but I didn't get it with the camera as the seller had lots of other ones to use it on.

Now I have a reason to get a Beaulieu.

Michael
at Pittsburgh Filmmakers as a student
  • 0

#5 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 17 February 2006 - 02:10 PM

Yup, it's pretty wide, but "plugged with epoxy" . . . Not a phrase one wants to hear when discussing lenses.

If you just can't get the 9.5-95mm to work for you, you might want to keep your eyes peeled for the Angenieux 9.5-57 f1.6.

It's got the wide end covered, but is better in just about every respect - faster, sharper, closer-focusing, and very compact. There are some out there in a C-mount with attached viewfinder . . . very cool little lens.
  • 0

#6 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 21 February 2006 - 04:08 PM

I got a Bolex prism viewer for behind the gate. If I open the camera body and insert the viewing device I can hold the camera spools up, view from the back with the camera flat and see everything upright! Something to cover the insides so my oily face and hot breath won't mess up the insides and I am ready to spec it out.
  • 0

#7 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 14 April 2006 - 01:05 PM

The lens works on a Bolex RX camera at 40-50mm and up. It focuses, does racks, telephotos and fantastic closeups. The H8RX-4 camera takes the lens and works from 40mm up to 95mm. RX cameras are nice to look through the lens with and pull focus with. It worked on a H16 RX.
A CP-R would work for viewing and 9.5mm viewing?
A diopter close-up lens would allow more wider shots?
  • 0

#8 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 14 April 2006 - 04:03 PM

If the lens seems to go out of focus at wider focal lengths on your Bolex Rx, it's probably incompatible with the camera's beam splitter. There may also be a back focus issue (the lens may be out of adjustment), but you can't really tell on the Bolex. You'd have an easier time evaluating the lens by mounting it on a reflex camera like a Beaulieu R16 or Eclair ACL or NPR. These cameras accept standard C-mount lenses like your Angeneiux (the Bolex generally requires specially-corrected "Rx" lenses at focal lengths below 75mm).

By CP-R, I think you're referring to the CP16R. The CP16R does not accept C-mount lenses - it has a dedicated mount. The original CP16 (no "R") accepted C-mount lenses, but had no reflex viewer.

A dioptric lens would allow for closer focusing, but not a wider focal length.
  • 0

#9 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 14 April 2006 - 09:58 PM

If the lens seems to go out of focus at wider focal lengths on your Bolex Rx, it's probably incompatible with the camera's beam splitter. There may also be a back focus issue (the lens may be out of adjustment), but you can't really tell on the Bolex. You'd have an easier time evaluating the lens by mounting it on a reflex camera like a Beaulieu R16 or Eclair ACL or NPR. These cameras accept standard C-mount lenses like your Angeneiux (the Bolex generally requires specially-corrected "Rx" lenses at focal lengths below 75mm).

By CP-R, I think you're referring to the CP16R. The CP16R does not accept C-mount lenses - it has a dedicated mount. The original CP16 (no "R") accepted C-mount lenses, but had no reflex viewer.

A dioptric lens would allow for closer focusing, but not a wider focal length.


We tried a Eclair but could not get it to go on, the cone cup didn't allow enough of the lens to seat. The lens thread area must be flat all around it because of the cup and part that sticks out for the viewfinder.
An older Beaulieu without all the newer things on it may work and was mentioned. The school doesn't have one however.

The wider the lens goes, the closer I need to focus it. 40mm works at 0.75 focus. 50mm at 1 and 95mm at 2. Wierd. However, it does work. That is why I thought a close up lens would allow wider shots.

I can't wait to see a R8 film with tremendous rack focus pulls.

The lens racks with the zoom. Just a little twist on the zoom and it changes from a tight shot of a lock on a window frame filling the frame to a tree in the distance that was lost in the blurr. Depth of field on a lace curtan way close up changes from one fold to the next then zoom and you see lacy trees in the distance and the curtan goes away to softness. It's really cool.

It'll do that on a H16 and it is the best I can do with it at present.

A C mount reflex camera would be nice to have. One with a flat front plate.
  • 0

#10 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 15 April 2006 - 12:40 PM

We tried a Eclair but could not get it to go on, the cone cup didn't allow enough of the lens to seat. The lens thread area must be flat all around it because of the cup and part that sticks out for the viewfinder.
An older Beaulieu without all the newer things on it may work and was mentioned. The school doesn't have one however.

The wider the lens goes, the closer I need to focus it. 40mm works at 0.75 focus. 50mm at 1 and 95mm at 2. Wierd. However, it does work. That is why I thought a close up lens would allow wider shots.

I can't wait to see a R8 film with tremendous rack focus pulls.

The lens racks with the zoom. Just a little twist on the zoom and it changes from a tight shot of a lock on a window frame filling the frame to a tree in the distance that was lost in the blurr. Depth of field on a lace curtan way close up changes from one fold to the next then zoom and you see lacy trees in the distance and the curtan goes away to softness. It's really cool.


---To get a wider angle you would have to put on a negative lens, not a positive lens which a close up diopter is.
& you would need to be focused in a macro mode.

The description of the focus change while zooming points to the zoom not sitting properly.
First thing to check is if it's screwed all the way into the C-cup. If you can't adjust it there send it off somewhere for re-collimation.

DON'T put that monster on a Beaulieu turret, it wight warp the turret. A single lens Beaulieu might be able to hold it.

---LV
  • 0

#11 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 15 April 2006 - 06:46 PM

---To get a wider angle you would have to put on a negative lens, not a positive lens which a close up diopter is.
& you would need to be focused in a macro mode.

The description of the focus change while zooming points to the zoom not sitting properly.
First thing to check is if it's screwed all the way into the C-cup. If you can't adjust it there send it off somewhere for re-collimation.

DON'T put that monster on a Beaulieu turret, it wight warp the turret. A single lens Beaulieu might be able to hold it.

---LV

Might?
A Bolex needs the turrett locking screw, but then it is alright.
What the H___ camera was it made for? I got it with an Auricon.
Is the "C" mount cup the only cup? Would it fit onto a different camera without the cup?

My 50 foot magazine load B&H camera may hold on to the lens. On 9,5mm and at a hyperfocal setting I could walk around and just hold the lens. :D

Edited by Michael Carter, 15 April 2006 - 06:47 PM.

  • 0

#12 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 17 April 2006 - 04:06 PM

Might?
A Bolex needs the turrett locking screw, but then it is alright.
What the H___ camera was it made for? I got it with an Auricon.
Is the "C" mount cup the only cup? Would it fit onto a different camera without the cup?

My 50 foot magazine load B&H camera may hold on to the lens. On 9,5mm and at a hyperfocal setting I could walk around and just hold the lens. :D


---I think Auricons were what that lens was most often used on.
The Bolex M (the no turret model) was meant to be used with that, its 12-120mm sister and the 17-85mm Pan Cinor.

When I was at sawyer, someone came in with an older filmo and wanted to use a 12-120mm angie on it.
The turret wouldn't stay in place. It kept slipping down. We wound up using yards of gaffer tape to hold the turret in place.

I think C-mount is the only one for the side finder model. I doubt that converting some camera to accept the lens without the C-cup is worth the expense.

Since little B&H probably weighs less than the lens, you can mount the camera on the lens. The lens will probably block most of the camera's viewfinder. Hold it at waist level and with practice, you ought to be able to aim it like a handgun.

Could the epoxy be interferring with the cup? Post pictures. I don't make house calls.


---LV
  • 0

#13 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 18 April 2006 - 04:03 PM

Update on the lens.

It works. It was put on a Bolex H16-T nonreflex camera with a prism viewfinder behind the gate with the door open. That diopter was set to the ground glass beads. The camera was put at exactly 6 feet from the film plane to a door with a small piece of white tape on it for focus, a tape measure was used. The lens was zoomed in all the way, focused, then zoomed out all the way. Image size then was just over 6 feet wide by 4 feet high and it looked in focus. It didn't get any better when I focused either side of my zoom focus so it must be right. Kinda hard to see at that width. Lens was wide open.
Previous attempts didn't work as well because the lens pulled the turrett down and changed the focus. This time a turrett locking screw was used and it held everything tightly where it was supposed to be.
Sizes are a little greater than I had measured using the focus finder because it cuts a little off the image. This prism shows the full frame.
I woke up later and realized that it had held focus from a zoom in to all the way out!! Nice locking screw that.

It works on a H8-RX4. Differently.
Basically, if I set focus at 3 1/2 feet and tape it down, I can then zoom from 95mm at 3 1/2 feet away (for a microscopic image) to 40 mm for far away. Blurring is very dramatic and should hold for smaller than wide open iris stops. Focused images are very sharp indeed but depth of field is very narrow. That's the cool part.
It is much easier to change mm and not the focus. Much less movement is required. I can follow a car going past and keep it in focus while changing zooms and keeping depth of field blurry on each side of it near and far.
Now I need a lens shade (other than black paper and tape) and a 85 filter. I might just get some gel and tape it over a hole in a card....

It also works on a 16mm Bolex RX 1 at 95mm at about 3 1/2 feet away. It functions like it does on the 8mm camera only on a RX 16mm.

I like how it changes zoom to focus making dramatic effects.
  • 0

#14 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 18 April 2006 - 04:53 PM

Update on the lens.

It works on a H8-RX4. Differently.
Basically, if I set focus at 3 1/2 feet and tape it down, I can then zoom from 95mm at 3 1/2 feet away (for a microscopic image) to 40 mm for far away. Blurring is very dramatic and should hold for smaller than wide open iris stops. Focused images are very sharp indeed but depth of field is very narrow. That's the cool part.
It is much easier to change mm and not the focus. Much less movement is required. I can follow a car going past and keep it in focus while changing zooms and keeping depth of field blurry on each side of it near and far.


Whoa... hold up there. The H8 Rx4 has a C-mount which is externally the same as on the 16mm Rx4, but the turret plate has a different depth. It's designed for certain RX lenses (designated H8) only - the 5.5mm Switar, for example. The 9.5 to 95mm is set up for standard 16mm use, and won't work properly on the H8, even though it will fit. This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, I believe.

When you say that it works differently on an H8, what you're describing is a lens not working properly at all. A true zoom lens will retain focus throughout its focal length range. If you focus the lens at its longest focal length, then zoom out to its widest, it should stay in perfect focus. If it goes out of focus, something is wrong.

Edited by Ian Marks, 18 April 2006 - 04:56 PM.

  • 0

#15 Michael Carter

Michael Carter
  • Guests

Posted 19 April 2006 - 11:44 AM

Whoa... hold up there. The H8 Rx4 has a C-mount which is externally the same as on the 16mm Rx4, but the turret plate has a different depth. It's designed for certain RX lenses (designated H8) only - the 5.5mm Switar, for example. The 9.5 to 95mm is set up for standard 16mm use, and won't work properly on the H8, even though it will fit. This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, I believe.

When you say that it works differently on an H8, what you're describing is a lens not working properly at all. A true zoom lens will retain focus throughout its focal length range. If you focus the lens at its longest focal length, then zoom out to its widest, it should stay in perfect focus. If it goes out of focus, something is wrong.

Sure is wrong, but it still works within the limits described. I lock the focus and change the zoom to focus leaving anything in front of the 'focus' or behind it very blurry indeed. Cool. :blink:
At the price of lenses being so high I'll use any and all to whatever effects they yield. This one on a "wrong" camera does great things. It fits, doesn't hurt anything and does cool things.

:ph34r: Here is another "wrong" thing. A gel filter was cut and put onto the glass door and now I'm ready to shoot my chrome outside. Just a tiny tab of tape on the metal away from the glass holds it.
The H16T has a groove to fit the gel into. It is like almost filter slot capabile. They stopped just short of adding the fully working filter slot.
  • 0


CineLab

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks

Metropolis Post

CineTape

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Paralinx LLC

FJS International, LLC

Wooden Camera

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

Visual Products

rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Glidecam

Abel Cine

Opal

CineLab

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery

Paralinx LLC

The Slider

Technodolly

Abel Cine

Wooden Camera

CineTape

Metropolis Post

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Glidecam

Visual Products

Opal

Tai Audio

Willys Widgets