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GL-2 white balance too magenta--help!


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#1 Ruby Gold

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:08 PM

I shoot mostly interviews with a GL-1 and GL-2. More recent shoots have been in classrooms for an educational DVD. At my shoot yesterday, there was an unavoidable mix of light between curtained windows and tungsten--but it was about about 80% tungsten. No matter how I tried to white balance my GL-2 (manual with card, auto, presets), the result came out looking kind of pinky--too much magenta. Not horrendous, but definitely off, and especially compared with the GL-1 which was in the same shoot.

I can't understand why setting the white balance wouldn't allow the colors to read truer, and have not had this problem before. I've got another shoot today and am paranoid about it--can anyone offer something I haven't thought of as an explanation for this or a way to correct?
thanks a lot-
Ruby
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#2 Mark Williams

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 12:57 PM

I shoot mostly interviews with a GL-1 and GL-2. More recent shoots have been in classrooms for an educational DVD. At my shoot yesterday, there was an unavoidable mix of light between curtained windows and tungsten--but it was about about 80% tungsten. No matter how I tried to white balance my GL-2 (manual with card, auto, presets), the result came out looking kind of pinky--too much magenta. Not horrendous, but definitely off, and especially compared with the GL-1 which was in the same shoot.

I can't understand why setting the white balance wouldn't allow the colors to read truer, and have not had this problem before. I've got another shoot today and am paranoid about it--can anyone offer something I haven't thought of as an explanation for this or a way to correct?
thanks a lot-
Ruby

I dont know if this would work but maybe try white balancing to a white card with a touch of green Or ask them to close the curtains or turn off lights? Or perhaps reposition the camera?
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#3 Ruby Gold

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:17 PM

I dont know if this would work but maybe try white balancing to a white card with a touch of green Or ask them to close the curtains or turn off lights? Or perhaps reposition the camera?


Thanks Mark. I actually did try using a pale "green" card to white balance with to see if that'd help, but it didn't. The curtains were closed. Any other thoughts?

thanks-
Ruby
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#4 Mark Williams

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:43 PM

Thanks Mark. I actually did try using a pale "green" card to white balance with to see if that'd help, but it didn't. The curtains were closed. Any other thoughts?

thanks-
Ruby


My thoughts would be the camera has developed a fault.. But the important thing is to get through your shoot.. So I would try the daylight or the tungsten setting.. Although undoubtably you have.. Perhaps try with the aperture at f1.6 and the ND filter on then try to white balance? YEs I know my answers are getting more deperate.. Perhaps try and white balance in a different mixture of light somewhere else? You could colour correct in post.. Borrow someone elses camera.. Sorry I cant be more helpfull..

Best of luck..
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#5 Ruby Gold

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:55 PM

My thoughts would be the camera has developed a fault.. But the important thing is to get through your shoot.. So I would try the daylight or the tungsten setting.. Although undoubtably you have.. Perhaps try with the aperture at f1.6 and the ND filter on then try to white balance? YEs I know my answers are getting more deperate.. Perhaps try and white balance in a different mixture of light somewhere else? You could colour correct in post.. Borrow someone elses camera.. Sorry I cant be more helpfull..

Best of luck..


thanks for the desperate answers, I appreciate it.

What do you mean that the camera has developed a "fault?"

thanks-
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#6 Mark Williams

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:31 PM

thanks for the desperate answers, I appreciate it.

What do you mean that the camera has developed a "fault?"

thanks-

Hi ruby

it sounds strange it wont balance? Unless this is normal for the GL2.. Although I do own one myself and have never noticed the white balance doing this.


Usually it amazes me at how good it is.. Just recently I filmed a man standing in front of a brightly lit window (The Sun) and used a 2K Blonde as a key light fairly close.. With the ND filter on.. Although the sun light was a little blue I felt this was acceptable.. If I had done the white balance more in favour of the sun by RE-positioning the camera and the card..I would undoubtably have got a magenta colour for the man.. sO The idea is to get the camera and the card where the balance is right..

But you have tried this and end up with Magenta whatever you seem to do even using a card with green..

I would think it may be a fault with my camera if this happened to me.. pOSSIBLY the balancing Gubbins is erring on the side of balancing to daylight In which case you could try a correction filter? However I am not there with you so I cant really say..
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#7 Mark Williams

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:47 PM

Ruby let us know how you get on? :)
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#8 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 04:06 PM

Thanks Mark. I actually did try using a pale "green" card to white balance with to see if that'd help, but it didn't. The curtains were closed. Any other thoughts?


---Shouldn't white balancing to a green card make it more magenta?

It would be trying to get rid of the green.

---
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#9 Mark Williams

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 04:23 PM

---Shouldn't white balancing to a green card make it more magenta?

It would be trying to get rid of the green.

---

Actually your right leo.. RUBY Use magenta to white balance..
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#10 Ruby Gold

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 04:44 PM

Hi ruby

it sounds strange it wont balance? Unless this is normal for the GL2.. Although I do own one myself and have never noticed the white balance doing this.
Usually it amazes me at how good it is.. Just recently I filmed a man standing in front of a brightly lit window (The Sun) and used a 2K Blonde as a key light fairly close.. With the ND filter on.. Although the sun light was a little blue I felt this was acceptable.. If I had done the white balance more in favour of the sun by RE-positioning the camera and the card..I would undoubtably have got a magenta colour for the man.. sO The idea is to get the camera and the card where the balance is right..

But you have tried this and end up with Magenta whatever you seem to do even using a card with green..

I would think it may be a fault with my camera if this happened to me.. pOSSIBLY the balancing Gubbins is erring on the side of balancing to daylight In which case you could try a correction filter? However I am not there with you so I cant really say..


Thanks so much Mark, I appreciate your thoughts. Yeah, the GL2 has been good to me too, that's why I'm puzzled. I'm not nearly as experienced as you (don't even know what a 2K Blonde IS), but your tip about positioning for balance could be the key. Also, the fact that the fluorescent light may have thrown it all off--though the GL1 looked to be truer in the same set-up--so I'm not sure. Will report back on the shoot today.

Thanks again-
Ruby
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#11 Mark Williams

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 05:04 PM

Thanks so much Mark, I appreciate your thoughts. Yeah, the GL2 has been good to me too, that's why I'm puzzled. I'm not nearly as experienced as you (don't even know what a 2K Blonde IS), but your tip about positioning for balance could be the key. Also, the fact that the fluorescent light may have thrown it all off--though the GL1 looked to be truer in the same set-up--so I'm not sure. Will report back on the shoot today.

Thanks again-
Ruby

Thats why were all here.. To try and help..
:) :) :)


fluorescent light

Sounds like the answer RIGHT there?
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#12 Gordon Highland

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 07:11 PM

Yes, magenta is what you get on skin tones when you white balance to fluoros and supplement with tungsten. I use a 4400 fluoro filter on my camera, gel my lights green, and all looks normal. Did this yesterday in a store that was naturallly well-lit (+ lots of white countertops everywhere), and just used some small green softlights to punch up the actors a bit. Even without, it's often a flatteringly-warm cast on skin, but if you can identify something that should be white in the shot, it'll be obvious.

And as someone else mentioned, if you want to remove a color's cast, that's the same color you white balance with, not its opposite.
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#13 Paul Lammertsma

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 09:50 PM

I, too, shoot many interviews and balancing on a white sheet is never a problem. It could indeed be some flaw in your particular camera. If it always seems to do this, take it to Canon for a look.

Otherwise, try using a slightly magenta sheet to balance on. In some cases I use a 80a incandescent filter since these interviews occasionally are shot in pubs and cafes.
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#14 Michael Nash

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 10:33 PM

It's always handy to carry a "jungle book, " a 2"x2" gel swatchbook just for this. If you encounter a camera that won't WB quite right, you can bias it toward any color by holding a complementary gel against the lens while white balancing. You can try different densities of gel and combinations of gels to get the color just right.

Jungle books are relatively easy to come by as freebies at various rental houses and trade shows.
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#15 Steven Schuneman

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 02:17 AM

Hi:

My experience with the GL-2 is that is has a
magenta push! It regularly white balanced as
too red or magenta causing me to stay away
from purchasing the camera.

Later, I read a review of the camera onlne and
it complained of the same problem you mentioned.
Of course, Canon didn't know what I was talking about. :)

I have several GL-1s and they don't have this
problem. You may well be able to cheat the
camera with a slightly colored card. Experiment.

Schuney
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#16 Ruby Gold

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 12:49 PM

Hi:

My experience with the GL-2 is that is has a
magenta push! It regularly white balanced as
too red or magenta causing me to stay away
from purchasing the camera.

Later, I read a review of the camera onlne and
it complained of the same problem you mentioned.
Of course, Canon didn't know what I was talking about. :)

I have several GL-1s and they don't have this
problem. You may well be able to cheat the
camera with a slightly colored card. Experiment.

Schuney



Hey, thanks a lot for this response--makes me feel less crazy! Yes, been back and forth with Canon a few times, and though they've been very willing/responsive, they don't see what I'm talking about. I'm thinking of just giving up and getting a Panasonic DVX100b. Big step up. But, again, thanks for your reply.

Ruby

Hi:

My experience with the GL-2 is that is has a
magenta push! It regularly white balanced as
too red or magenta causing me to stay away
from purchasing the camera.

Later, I read a review of the camera onlne and
it complained of the same problem you mentioned.
Of course, Canon didn't know what I was talking about. :)

I have several GL-1s and they don't have this
problem. You may well be able to cheat the
camera with a slightly colored card. Experiment.

Schuney


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#17 Michael Collier

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 02:49 PM

I had this problem long ago with my GL-1. I think the problem is rooted in the pixel shift. This was way back when pixel shift was first introduced. Granted the GL-2 came much later, but maybe they didnt do enough to fix the matrix.

One thing that always helped me out was adjusting the tint setting in the menu. This compensated for the megenta look. Make sure and do that on a color reference monitor, or prefereably a vectoscope with a chip card. also watch your lighting the GL series werent very good with mixed lighting and had a low exposure latitued, so watch for very bright highlights.
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#18 Michael Nash

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 04:33 PM

One thing that always helped me out was adjusting the tint setting in the menu. This compensated for the megenta look.


Just watch out for what this does to color reproduction. Adjusting the hue of a video signal for proper skin tones or neutrals can throw other colors out of whack. Look for it in the blues and yellows -- blues will go cyan or purple; yellows will go orange or yellow-green.
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#19 Greg Gross

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 11:23 PM

Can you set a custom white balance with your GL-1,GL-2 ? I 'm not familiar with all
specs on Canon dv cameras. Your camera uses what is known as pixel shift. It ex-
ceeds the overall quality of camcorders using greater pixels. Light is split in to red,
green,blue. Each one of your CCD's handles one color. Green is about 60% of the
image detail, red and blue are about 40% each. The green CCD is shifted about 1/2
pixel from the red and blue CCD's. The Green signal is sampled more frequently to
extract the maximum image detail from the dv signal. You should be getting natural
color and clarity. The pixel shift technology gives you better dynamic range and han-
dles bright light sources better. There are 410,000 pixels on each CCD of the GL-2.
Canon claims the GL-2 rivals cameras using 680,000 pixels(due pixel shift technology).
To start with you should be getting natural color and clarity with your image. Are you
getting any smearing? If you are getting a lot of smearing something may be wrong.
I know you have an auto white balance on the GL-2. I do not know if it has a manual
and custom white balance mode. I think I would start by setting a white balance(white
card, white object). Does the camera need cleaned?

Greg Gross
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