Jump to content


Photo

CP16


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:50 AM

I got this deal with a guy who owns a CP-16 in town where I can shoot my feature film on it this summer if I convert it to super16. I found a guy who can convert this camera for $2000, and I found limited information on it. I found out about the smear problem, but this camera has the 170 half moon shutter, so I figure its safe.

What I want need is a place where I can read up on the camera. I want to know it inside and out before the first day of testing. I will be shooting 250 rated at 200 color negative. both outdoor and indoor tests.

Does anyone have a link to info or an online manual?
  • 0

#2 rbg

rbg
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 31 posts
  • Director
  • Santa Monica

Posted 25 February 2006 - 03:21 AM

I got this deal with a guy who owns a CP-16 in town where I can shoot my feature film on it this summer if I convert it to super16. I found a guy who can convert this camera for $2000, and I found limited information on it. I found out about the smear problem, but this camera has the 170 half moon shutter, so I figure its safe.

What I want need is a place where I can read up on the camera. I want to know it inside and out before the first day of testing. I will be shooting 250 rated at 200 color negative. both outdoor and indoor tests.

Does anyone have a link to info or an online manual?


Hey-

There is a guy named George at Optical Electro House in Culver City CA, http://www.opticalelectrohouse.com/
He converts CP-16 to Super16. He has all kinds of extra stuff and info.

Also try Visual Products, visualproducts.com
they also do conversions and have CP-mounted lenses which are super hard to find.

Oh, and Whitehouse AV or Whitehouse audio/video in Thousand Oaks, CA. This company was started by the guy, Derrek Whitehouse, who actually owned Cinema Products and is partially responsible for the camera you're going to be using.

Any of these places may have a manual for your camera and all three can fix and service. I have a CP-GSMO and I took it to George at Optical Electro and he did an amazing service. It makes no noise and works like a charm. I'm sure he could fix whatever problems you have. He is also very, very fair on his pricing.

Good Luck.

Ryan Barton-Grimley "RBG"
  • 0

#3 Josh Hill

Josh Hill
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • New York, NY

Posted 25 February 2006 - 04:10 AM

I don't believe Derek Whitehouse ever OWNED Cinema Products, and Paul Hillman (who now works at Visual Products) was their badass CP16 guy. He did a great job for me on an overhaul and I recommend him immensely. If you're going to get the Super 16 conversion, get it there.

There's really not a whole lot about the CP that you need to know, or at least that you can't learn from looking at the camera. The magazines load in a 99 formation an there is a threading diagram inside the camera (make sure the loop is formed just off of the bottom of the camera, otherwise the pulldown claw will tear sprockets). The camera is sync at 24 (or 30 if you have the adaptor gear) fps, but runs variable speed from 12 - 48 fps, so you're not doing any super slow motion with it.

What is really going to matter is the lens on the front. I have the Ang. 10-150 and just got a roll of 7222 back. The lens was sharper than I had expected. I have to note that after working with video (XL1s) for so long, the latitude of film was really unexpected. There were details that I didn't think would be there, especially in the shadows.

One thing you may want to think about, though, is whether or not you want to spend 2000 to convert someone else's camera rather than buy your own. I got my CP for 1400 with tripod, mags, etc and had it overhauled for 1200 at Visual Products and I now own my own CP16R. Check eBay, they've been going for less than 1000 dollars.

As someone said in another post about the CP earlier this week, they aren't as pretty to look at or stylish as an Aaton or Arri, but they get the same job done and are reliable cameras when well maintained.
  • 0

#4 Patrick Neary

Patrick Neary
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 873 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Portland, OR

Posted 25 February 2006 - 10:52 AM

There's really not a whole lot about the CP that you need to know, or at least that you can't learn from looking at the camera. The magazines load in a 99 formation an there is a threading diagram inside the camera (make sure the loop is formed just off of the bottom of the camera, otherwise the pulldown claw will tear sprockets).


also make sure the film goes OVER the top of the roller on the take-up side of the mag...otherwise you will have the most spectacular scratching you have ever seen on any film! Don't ask how I know that...
  • 0

#5 3ldfilms

3ldfilms
  • Guests

Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:02 PM

Here's a thought...it seems like the guy lending you the camera is getting the better end of the deal.

If you're alredy spending $2000 on the conversion, why not spend an extra $1200 and buy the Cp16 on ebay then convert it and then you have your own S16 camera. Or at the end of shooting you can sell the Super 16 CP-16 and make your money back.
  • 0

#6 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 26 February 2006 - 02:37 AM

hmmm. Buying one thats a new thought. The original plan was to rent the only Aaton XTR Prod in town, but that proved too costly (1100/day, plus 450 for a first AC the guy required to loan it out) so I figured $2000 for the conversion would be a great deal. Maybe I can find the cash to purchase one. I am purchasing lights, because our shedule being so broken up (mostly weekends, pickup days whenever we can) I need flexibility with lights, and 4,000 on cheap omnis and totas with a lot of blackwrap will achieve the vision I am looking for, and most of the movie is bW so I wont need very many gels.

How noisy is the camera? I know the one I am looking at has just been rebuilt, but will I have to blimp if the camera is too close? I think the super16 conversion is more to serve this project, because its a requirement I have of the film. I met this guy in Juneau (our state capitol) and he offered to let me use the camera for free, so I think I would have access to this camera after the film is done. The way I see it I am saving more than 11grand not renting the XTR, and I would rather put that money into more production, rather than buy the camera. I have a feeling that if I do upgrade his camera, I got an ally in town who not only can help me with future productions, but might be able to throw work my way.

The other thing is when I do buy a film camera it wont be a $1000 camera. Its a fine camera for this movie, considering the budget is only around 20K at this point, but when I buy a camera I want something that has at least timecode, xstal sync to several frame rates, has PL mount standard and I will get a bunch of quality primes. but that will come after this film sells its first 10million right?
  • 0

#7 3ldfilms

3ldfilms
  • Guests

Posted 26 February 2006 - 10:22 AM

Most places that do the S16 conversion will also rebuild the camera as part of the S16 upgrade so it will look, sound, and shoot like it's new(ish). If its been rebuilt it will be really quiet. And for an extra $500 you can get a PL mount added.

I just see it as a no brainer. There's lots of people who I'd like to have help me out in the future but I'm not going to spend $2000 upgrading their gear for them.

I'm sure his intentions are honorable, but you'd be giving him twice the value of the camera. If he had an SRII or something it would be a different situation (though good luck upgrading an SRII for $2000).

Even if you don't want to keep it, if you buy a camera, convert it and sell it you will definitely save money which you can pour back into other areas of production.
  • 0

#8 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 26 February 2006 - 10:29 PM

Id love to buy the camera, but even 1000 bucks would be a godsend to an already strapt project. this is the only deal in town that is affordable and gives me the flexibility I need (since no actors are being paid upfront, its difficult to require consecutive 10 hour days.)

I was looking at renting, where I would loose much more than 2K and still not have a camera in the end. If I had more money around I would probably go for it, or buy the camera off him or something, but for now I see it as a large cost savings.

I am more focused on the movie. I would love to own the camera, but I would rather that money go to things that are needed. props, costumes, travel. My actors are good people, dedicated and donating time. I need to provide the best production for them to work in.

And given how small of a film comunity there is in Alaska, if I have another project that requires super16, I will have a good place to go to get a cheap rate on a camera. (possibly free as long as its not being used)

Edited by Michael Collier, 26 February 2006 - 10:31 PM.

  • 0

#9 3ldfilms

3ldfilms
  • Guests

Posted 26 February 2006 - 11:16 PM

All I'm saying is right now you're out $2000.

Spend/borrow/steal $1000 to get the camera and you will SAVE $2000 because youc an sell the Super 16 CP for $3000.

So by buyin git you can ultimatyely but an extra $2000 towards props/sets/costumes.

Noy trying to be pushy or anything...I just understand where you're at (I was recently in a similar position) and buying and the reselling made more sense for me (it was like a free rental).

But best of luck to you!

Ed
  • 0

#10 Josh Hill

Josh Hill
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • New York, NY

Posted 27 February 2006 - 05:48 PM

Even if you buy and overhaul a CP16 for 2000 dollars and shoot in regular 16, that is a much better deal than upgrading someone else's camera. You will also have the camera for your own reshoots, make your own schedule and not have to worry about having to have someone else there to operate it.

My CP16R is extremely quiet, probably more so than you would expect. It is self-blimped. I'm actually shooting some more with it this weekend (hopefully), which is really the best reason to buy your own camera: you can shoot when you want.
  • 0

#11 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 27 February 2006 - 06:02 PM

I have the option to shoot whenever I want. Its really a small close knit community. This isnt some huge rental house with no soul. Its one of a few people that I see out in the feild everyday. Everyone I have met in the course of making this film I met through other friends.

Now yes, if I sold it I would definatley make money back and that could go to post considerations, but there is not 3000 worth of post to be done (considering all development is scheduled for asap, no chance to wait to develop. All film is part of a package deal including stock, proccessing and mini-DV/DVCPRO transfer.)

the only thing left is the HD telecine, which will only cost $2000, the cost of the conversion. So I am still out $1000 in production funds where it is needed the most....on set. I would recoup this money only when it is not needed. (and thats if I can find one on ebay for 1000 that does not need any major work be done)

If I could beg borrow steal an extra 1000 bucks....well it would still go to bulster the production. The guy who did the makeup fx on the Angel series lives in Anchorage (an amazing fact, considering our production level) but If I can get him on board it would be a huge boon to the film. The film inludeds a few efx shots. An exorsism, an crossbow that gets fired into the chest cavity of a person (I want to see the arrow fly from the crossbow and plant itself just around the upper lung, giving the charecter a believable drawn out death.) a girl who gets shot in the head at close range on camera. Those arent cheap efx and all I can think of at this point is that owning the camera could compromise the efx, which in my book is no real choice.
  • 0

#12 Josh Hill

Josh Hill
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • New York, NY

Posted 27 February 2006 - 08:31 PM

Actually ... all of those sound like extremely cheap effects. Don't pay a lot of money to do something like that when you can do it for a few dollars. Look at what Sam Raimi did with Evil Dead. Do some research on the effects and you'll find pretty cheap ways of doing them (believably). Go watch the making of Dawn of the Dead (new version) and many other horror movies with head shots. Most of them are done cheaply and simply.

Just know that you're wasting your two grand if you pay for someone else's conversion. You get it for your one shoot, but they get to rent it / market it as a S16mm forever.

There are also some questions I don't think anyone has asked. What kind of lens is on this CP16? It may not be worth it to convert it to Super 16 if he only has a lens that will cover from 50mm up or if there is going to be vignetting with any primes he has. There would be no point in shooting Super 16 if the lens doesn't cover it, and unless you get the lens mount changed you're not going to be able to rent any Super 16mm lenses for the CP16.
  • 0

#13 Ian Marks

Ian Marks
  • Guests

Posted 27 February 2006 - 09:08 PM

There would be no point in shooting Super 16 if the lens doesn't cover it, and unless you get the lens mount changed you're not going to be able to rent any Super 16mm lenses for the CP16.


Actually, the CP mount accepts adapters to use Arri standard and bayonet lenses, so (budget allowing) you should have no problem renting lenses that cover Super 16. Josh is right in suggesting that you need to pay attention to your lens options, though. Just because your camera is modified to Super 16 doesn't mean you can shoot that format with whatever lens happens to come with it. In any event, I hope you'll keep us up to date with your project - it sounds like fun.
  • 0

#14 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:41 PM

Lens were considered. Right now a set of zeiss super speeds are budgeted, along with the PL mod.(unless anyone has any favorite, ultra-sharp lenses they want me to consider, I have not used any of these lenses, nor will I get much opourtunity to test different lenses) The camera comes stock with an angneux lens, and I will talk to the guy who does the super16 conversion to see if that will cover the s16 space (and Of course I will test to make sure there is no exessive vinnetting.)
  • 0

#15 Josh Hill

Josh Hill
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • New York, NY

Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:45 PM

Out of curiosity, just how much is this shoot budgetted for? How much are you paying for these Zeiss Super speeds (since you were going to get screwed on the Aaton, I'm curious)?
  • 0

#16 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:10 PM

Funding has not been finialized (we hit I think the 20K mark a few days ago, but in the contracts I capped the project at 30K, so I am looking for that last 10K) The main funders committed to 5K, but I think they are considering going as high as 15k, because they expressed intrest in owning a majority of the rights.

Lenses were budgeted at 500/day (with 3day rental weeks its around 4500 for lenses) This however was the budget as it stood for the XTR prod. I have no hang ups about getting cheaper lenses if they are availible, and if I can shoot the whole film on the agneux and its reasonably sharp and does not have vinnetting, I would be happy. However for 4500 bucks I cant help but assume I can get different agneux that does cover the super16mm range and save some money.

Film cost as it stands is around 10K (including 15,600 feet (4:1 ratio) of fuji 200 or 250 negative, proccessing, work telecine to DVCAM for editting, and 120 minutes of HD telecine.) the camera is 5k including lens and accessories (not a lot in accessories, but little is needed) and 5k for production (inludes some lights, though I own a pretty well stocked light kit with 10 units and a generator (though not quite, so long cable runs are inevitable.)

If I can reduce the cost of the lens I would be happy, but I will not have a soft image, or vinnetted one to get costs down
  • 0

#17 3ldfilms

3ldfilms
  • Guests

Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:24 PM

Where's the $2K for the S16 upgrade and $500 for the PL moun conversion? Is that factored into the cost of the lenses?

ed
  • 0

#18 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 28 February 2006 - 10:05 PM

Sorry yes the conversion is factored into the budget. I was just throwing out rough numbers off the top of my head. Im at my 9 to 5 now, and all my documents are at home, so all I have to go off of is numbers in my head (which seam to change every 2 minutes) I have a long way to go before principle photography starts, but I have done this before (on video of course) so Im not worried. Just a matter of working through a pile of work, allong with going through the script and working that. (I just started working the script last night. I love that, its my favorite to put some music on and close my eyes and listen to a recording of the script and imagine it(even though its my ghastly voice)

Other than that things are looking good. Luckilly I am only producing, editting, DoP and visual director. The writter of the movie (and director of the last movie I DoPd) worked out a deal where I control everything you see. I direct the art direction side, camera and light dept, he works with the actors and does rehersal, so I can focus on my strong suite.
  • 0


CineTape

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Abel Cine

Willys Widgets

CineLab

Opal

FJS International, LLC

Metropolis Post

Rig Wheels Passport

The Slider

Glidecam

Wooden Camera

Tai Audio

Visual Products

rebotnix Technologies

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

Paralinx LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Visual Products

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

Opal

Glidecam

Wooden Camera

The Slider

CineLab

CineTape

FJS International, LLC

Metropolis Post

Willys Widgets

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Abel Cine

Tai Audio

Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies