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Super 8 Resolving Power Is Now Higher than HD


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#1 santo

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:53 PM

At least in theory, that is.

What you'd need to do is buy one of the new Zeiss ZI lenses -- the 25mm seems the king of the castle and a decent super 8 "long" -- and then get Pro8 to do up some custom carts with a film like Spur Orthopan and give it a try.

Of course you need to have a real camera like a Beaulieu or a Leicina Special to do this so you can use the lens, and a scan to HD would be great, but to really do it you'd need at least a 2K scan of the super 8. You'll need the 2k scan because using that film and one of the new Zeiss primes, you're going to get a super 8 image of 4248 lines by 3208 lines. Or 2124 by 1604 line pairs. Maybe you'll need a 4k scan? :)

This is now possible (in theory, of course) because the new Zeiss ZI 25mm lens (Leica M-mount, clicks right onto the front of a Leicina Special) is the record holder for a production photographic lens. It resolves all the way to the limit possible in theory for a lens at f4. 400 lp/mm tested with the Spur film.

http://www.zeiss.de/...hoto/home_e.nsf see camera lens news issue 24.

Now, we're not going to get that kind of resolution with super 8 simply because the film just isn't flat enough. Sure, the Special has a unique narrow film gate that flattens the film, unlike other super 8 cameras, but even so there's lot of vibration and whatnot and it likely is not as flat as a still film camera. But I think doing a few single frame tests as well would take care of that.

Something fun to think about, though. Some old super 8 camera stomping Evil Emperor George Lucas's $100,000 HD camera in a resolution test by a country mile. :lol: Wouldn't that be an insane test to do and publish somewhere?
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#2 Scot McPhie

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:33 PM

Wouldn't that be an insane test to do and publish somewhere?


Have you got the gear to do that test yourself Santo?

Scot
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#3 Ian Marks

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:22 PM

Nice - I see that Zeiss is also re-introducing the "Zeiss Ikon" line of cameras with a full complement of lenses, including a 15mm with T* coating. I know Cosina has been producing lenses in 15mm and 12mm focal lengths in the Leica screw mount (for which C-mount adapters are easily obtained), but these had slow maximum apertures. The 15mm Zeiss opens up to a usable if unspectacular f2.8. Here's the blurb from the site:

"The ultra-wide angle lens designed for high-speed performance and full integration with TTL-exposure metering. It features a very complex floating lens element optical design that includes 11 lens elements of exotic optical materials such as barium dense flint with a high refractive index and fluor crown with anomalous partial dispersion and an aspheric surface. Equipped with this lens, you can expect incredible resolving power at high speeds opening up possibilities for handheld indoor shots previously impossible. It also gives you a remarkably even illumination of the frame. Quite simply, this lens is made for stunning photographic compositions, eye-catching advertising, documentation in cramped spaces and extremely dynamic architectural photos."

Of course there would be lens mount issues to resolve (it looks like these lenses have a unique "ZM" mount), but who knows. . .

Random thought - has anybody ever thought of a "Vistavision" style camera with super-8 film travelling horizontally past a double-sized gate?

Wait - maybe the "ZM" mount is the Leica M mount (problem solved?). Does anyone know? I'm sure they're not cheap. . .
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#4 S8 Booster

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:37 PM

Living is easy with eyes closed....


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#5 andres victorero

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:33 PM

sounds fantastic ! long life for the S8 film B)

Edited by andres victorero, 01 March 2006 - 06:33 PM.

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#6 steve hyde

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 04:42 PM

...This in an interesting lens.

The 2.8 25 you referenced here would be nice on a 16mm camera.


The Orthopan film, the Zeiss 2.8 25 and the Leicina would be a nice set up for making timelapses of flowers blooming and also landscape timelapses. Do Leicna's timelapse? Do you need an intervelometer with one?


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#7 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 05:28 PM

Nice - I see that Zeiss is also re-introducing the "Zeiss Ikon" line of cameras with a full complement of lenses, including a 15mm with T* coating. I know Cosina has been producing lenses in 15mm and 12mm focal lengths in the Leica screw mount (for which C-mount adapters are easily obtained), but these had slow maximum apertures. The 15mm Zeiss opens up to a usable if unspectacular f2.8. Here's the blurb from the site:

Wait - maybe the "ZM" mount is the Leica M mount (problem solved?). Does anyone know? I'm sure they're not cheap. . .


---Yes, the ZM mt is the same as the Leica M mt. It seems to be the new standard mount for high end rangefinders. The Rollei RM, the Voightlander VM, the Konica KM.

& yes Cosina is also making the Zeiss Ikon, Though they didn't make the Konica Hexar. But the others...

I think they're making the lenses too. Still Zeiss designs.

---LV
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#8 Peter Duggan

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 06:55 PM

Let's just hope that Kodak doesn't kill super 8 production on us
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#9 Chris Cooke

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 08:24 PM

Let's just hope that Kodak doesn't kill super 8 production on us


Don't worry about that man. Too many films are using super 8 for Kodak to just shut it down. I just read an article (http://www.csc.ca/ne...lt.asp?aID=1095) about Danny Nowak, CSC who shot about 1/3 of The Love Crimes of Gillian Guess on super 8mm. Many cinematographers on major motion picture films choose super 8 as a "home video look". I don't think that Kodak would take this option away from us. Also, there's an ever increasing super 8 community and I think that Kodak is well aware of this. They claim that super 8 is what 16mm used to be. I know they dropped K-40 but that's not the be all and end all of super 8 by any means. The new Ektachrome 64t looks pretty good and they've also integrated their vision 2 stocks.
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#10 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 08:44 PM

As long as Kodak makes 35mm & 16mm motion picture stock, there will always be someone who will break it down and load it into Super-8 cartridges and sell them, as long as someone is buying. So Kodak can't really "kill" Super-8 unless it killed the bigger formats.
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#11 Filip Plesha

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 09:20 PM

As long as Kodak makes 35mm & 16mm motion picture stock, there will always be someone who will break it down and load it into Super-8 cartridges and sell them, as long as someone is buying. So Kodak can't really "kill" Super-8 unless it killed the bigger formats.


Indeed
A lot, if not most of the stuff super8 shooters are using doesn't even come from Kodak but pro8, who cut it down and offer a huge variety of stocks
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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 10:12 PM

Super-8 still has an important place in Kodak's professional motion picture business. B) Kodak is investing in moving Super-8 production back to the USA, and new equipment is involved.
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#13 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 10:22 PM

Don't worry about that man. Too many films are using super 8 for Kodak to just shut it down. I just read an article (http://www.csc.ca/ne...lt.asp?aID=1095) about Danny Nowak, CSC who shot about 1/3 of The Love Crimes of Gillian Guess on super 8mm. Many cinematographers on major motion picture films choose super 8 as a "home video look". I don't think that Kodak would take this option away from us. Also, there's an ever increasing super 8 community and I think that Kodak is well aware of this. They claim that super 8 is what 16mm used to be. I know they dropped K-40 but that's not the be all and end all of super 8 by any means. The new Ektachrome 64t looks pretty good and they've also integrated their vision 2 stocks.


Something for the trivia buffs out there: If you read the article you'll see that it says "One of Nowak?s challenges was finding a Super 8 camera. ?Bruce said the camera had to be silent, so I got on the Internet and found the Nizo 4080, the quietest Super 8 there is. I found one for sale in Germany and bought it right away. It was about $600 Canadian, including shipping of about $150. It was a great deal and I rented it to the production,? he said.

He's simplifying things a little for the sake of the interview. In reality he didn't get on the internet and find the Nizo. He called me and I jumped on the internet and found the Nizo and arranged the sale. They paid me $200 for my time. It arrived on set the day they were set to use it.

Like I say, for the trivia buffs.

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#14 Peter Duggan

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 01:07 AM

Super-8 still has an important place in Kodak's professional motion picture business. B) Kodak is investing in moving Super-8 production back to the USA, and new equipment is involved.


Cool. I know that the fate of 50D for super 8 is still undecided, but is there any chance of other stocks making their way down to super 8? I'm particularly interested in the Double-X neg.
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#15 santo

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:04 AM

Have you got the gear to do that test yourself Santo?

Scot


Yes. Not an HD camera, though. That would be rented. Everything, to do it right, would cost a few thousand bucks. Is it worth it? That's the question. I could make another short this spring for what it would probably cost.

The thing that appeals to me would be the absurd shock factor. A whole lot of upset people -- upset about nothing, really. :P But for it to really have an impact it would have to be carried in mainstream media as kind of a novelty news item. That would make it worthwhile. A picture of the old super 8 camera beside the new mega-buck HD techno-monster. The HD tape beside a super 8 cart. Then the images. And, best of all, a heavy-handed commentary on "putting things in perspective" as to the way it really is...you don't even need a 16mm camera to beat HD. hahahahhahaha typical Santo button-pushing. Only pushing the buttons of some big electronics corporations and their hype machines, hopefully. Be great for publicizing super 8's current revival. You could even use that Kodak Imagelink HQ material. At the tested 320 lp/mm, like the Zeiss article points out, it's beyond what a film scanner can pick up using lenses like these.
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#16 santo

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:19 AM

Do Leicna's timelapse? Do you need an intervelometer with one?
Steve


Yes, you need an intervelometer. Their ST-1 is an amazing option they had. You can do just about anything. Even a remote power source. Plugs into the top of the camera. I picked up this "new old stock" one recently. I took a photo, thinking I was going to sell it on ebay as I never do time-lapse, but I changed my mind. Still haven't had the heart to tear open that plastic bag yet. Maybe today!

Posted Image


...and new equipment is involved.


I don't think we could read a more positive affirmation as to the future of super 8.
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