Jump to content


Photo

Resolution / animation/ 16mm?


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 Mai

Mai
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts
  • Other
  • Berlin, Germany and Oslo, Norway

Posted 03 March 2006 - 04:58 PM

Hi there!

I am quite new to this forum, and this is my first post.
(but have already learnt alot of things reading the posts on K-3s)

Now, I am working on an animation to result in a 16mm film.

The animation which contains about 750 drawings,each shown one after the other, two frames each. Thus the animation will have an approximate duration of 1min. The end result: to show the 16mm film looped on a 16mm projector-in a gallery space.

I don´t know if this is the best way to do:

I am scanning all the drawings into my computer, and then delivering all the digital stills to the lab to be transferred to 16 mm film or the cheaper way- to deliver an uncompressed video of all the digital files to be transferred to 16 mm. How much quality would I lose in choosing the cheaper method?

Second question: What resolution and format should my digital stills(being the scans of the drawings) have to obtain the best possible quality on 16 mm film? (I guess that it must be much bigger than the DV Pal res: 576x720 pixels/ 72dpi?)

I hope my questions seem clear and am
looking forward to hearing your advice !

Best regards,
Mai H. G. (visual artist)
  • 0

#2 Stephen Williams

Stephen Williams
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4708 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Europe

Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:16 PM

Hi there!

I am quite new to this forum, and this is my first post.
(but have already learnt alot of things reading the posts on K-3s)

Now, I am working on an animation to result in a 16mm film.

The animation which contains about 750 drawings,each shown one after the other, two frames each. Thus the animation will have an approximate duration of 1min. The end result: to show the 16mm film looped on a 16mm projector-in a gallery space.

I don´t know if this is the best way to do:

I am scanning all the drawings into my computer, and then delivering all the digital stills to the lab to be transferred to 16 mm film or the cheaper way- to deliver an uncompressed video of all the digital files to be transferred to 16 mm. How much quality would I lose in choosing the cheaper method?

Second question: What resolution and format should my digital stills(being the scans of the drawings) have to obtain the best possible quality on 16 mm film? (I guess that it must be much bigger than the DV Pal res: 576x720 pixels/ 72dpi?)

I hope my questions seem clear and am
looking forward to hearing your advice !

Best regards,
Mai H. G. (visual artist)


Hi,

A better and cheeper way would be to shoot directly with a Bolex.

If you do scan into your computer I would use a resoloution of 1728 x 1240 for reg 16 or 2048 x 1240 for S16.

Stephen
  • 0

#3 Michael Collier

Michael Collier
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1262 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:34 PM

Second question: What resolution and format should my digital stills(being the scans of the drawings) have to obtain the best possible quality on 16 mm film? (I guess that it must be much bigger than the DV Pal res: 576x720 pixels/ 72dpi?)


First, loose the dpi. DPI is a meaningless term. It only refers to the output resolution of a printer. Since you wont be prining DPI is a term you can just completely forget about.

As to your other question.....How high resolution can you make it? I would recomend at least 1080x1920 (2.3 Mpixel, 16:9 aspect ratio) to match HD resolution. If you can go larger and still work reasonably well then go larger. I would not go anything more than 2160x3840 (4x HD resolution) because there is absolutley no reason to. That resolution is around what 4K is, which is the highest resolution you can scan back to film currently (from what I understand)

I have heard of a lot of films starting with 4K, but down-resing to 2K before post. This seems reasonable, because every pixel now has been supersampled with 4 pixels. (if I am correct in thinkin most DSLRs are 1 Chip Bayer masked, then supersampling 4 pixels will yeild a pixel that was combined with all 4 color elements, meaning that edge softness typically associated with 1chip bayer image sensors would be eliminated.)

Keep in mind I have not done any film-out from digital option, but this I have done a lot of research on the subject, and I believe this is a similar method to Corpse Bride.
  • 0

#4 Scott Fritzshall

Scott Fritzshall
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 584 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 03 March 2006 - 05:36 PM

There's no real difference between individual frame files and an uncompressed movie file as long as they've both got the same resolution. That's what uncompressed means- you aren't changing it. An image sequence is fine, I don't see any reason to bother encoding it to video.

Ask the lab what resolution they recommend for film out to 16mm, but my guess is around 2k.

Also, considering your plan to loop your film (which I didn't even know you could do), you might want to have the lab burn your sequence to negative film. That way, you can create multiple positive release prints off of that, which is much cheaper than doing another film out when your print wears out.

Edited by Scott Fritzshall, 03 March 2006 - 05:39 PM.

  • 0

#5 Chris Burke

Chris Burke
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1675 posts
  • Boston, MA

Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:14 PM

There's no real difference between individual frame files and an uncompressed movie file as long as they've both got the same resolution. That's what uncompressed means- you aren't changing it. An image sequence is fine, I don't see any reason to bother encoding it to video.

Ask the lab what resolution they recommend for film out to 16mm, but my guess is around 2k.

Also, considering your plan to loop your film (which I didn't even know you could do), you might want to have the lab burn your sequence to negative film. That way, you can create multiple positive release prints off of that, which is much cheaper than doing another film out when your print wears out.



How big are the drawings? Can they fit on a scanner? I would think that scanning them would give you the best results for a film out. Hell, if it is really good stuff, just kidding, I know it is, then scan for 35mm res. You can always down size it later. A scanner would be the quickest was to having really evenly lit images. With a camera, you will need a copy stand. Not a hassle, but more work. You can resize the images to fit any format you want in Photoshop or the like. Sure you know that. HIgher res is always better, especially with stills. It gives you more options and is very easy to deal with.

Chris
  • 0

#6 Mai

Mai
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 17 posts
  • Other
  • Berlin, Germany and Oslo, Norway

Posted 03 March 2006 - 06:57 PM

Thanks everyone! I am really happy getting so quick response on questions I have been wondering about for weeks...

First, Stephen, your suggestion on shooting directly with a Bolex. It definetely seems much more reasonable. I was thinking on doing this at first, but after making some phone calls I couldn´t track down anyone here in Berlin who could help me with this(unbelivable? I might have given up too early? ). I was afraid of doing this myself though as I thought it would be hard to get it exposed right, get even lighting, the right colours etc. Anyhow, if anybody have any clues on where (or who) this could be done in Berlin let me know ;) because I would like to give it a shot..

Secondly Chris, The drawings are a4, so they perfectly fit on an a4 scanner. You are right, it might be a good idea to prepare for the 35mm (just in case), what resolution would I need then?

Thanks everyone, for all the suggestions on resolutions, still a bit confused though, but as you said Scott, I will call the lab and ask them, on monday! I think reg 16 will be the best format for me.

Best, Mai
  • 0

#7 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11936 posts
  • Other

Posted 03 March 2006 - 07:27 PM

Hi,

Hate to be predictable, but:

I can't help but feel that looped projection is a textbook case for a decent DLP projector and a video server.

Phil
  • 0

#8 Herb Montes

Herb Montes
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 225 posts
  • Other
  • Gulf Coast of Texas

Posted 03 March 2006 - 11:12 PM

Thanks everyone! I am really happy getting so quick response on questions I have been wondering about for weeks...

First, Stephen, your suggestion on shooting directly with a Bolex. It definetely seems much more reasonable. I was thinking on doing this at first, but after making some phone calls I couldn´t track down anyone here in Berlin who could help me with this(unbelivable? I might have given up too early? ). I was afraid of doing this myself though as I thought it would be hard to get it exposed right, get even lighting, the right colours etc. Anyhow, if anybody have any clues on where (or who) this could be done in Berlin let me know ;) because I would like to give it a shot..

Secondly Chris, The drawings are a4, so they perfectly fit on an a4 scanner. You are right, it might be a good idea to prepare for the 35mm (just in case), what resolution would I need then?

Thanks everyone, for all the suggestions on resolutions, still a bit confused though, but as you said Scott, I will call the lab and ask them, on monday! I think reg 16 will be the best format for me.

Best, Mai


You can't find anyone in Berlin to shoot your animation on film? Surely there is someone in the entire city who still uses film, a film club perhaps? Try asking at the Filmshooting forum. There are quite a few filmmakers there posting from Europe. They can find someone for you.

http://www.filmshooting.com
  • 0


rebotnix Technologies

CineLab

Metropolis Post

Glidecam

Technodolly

Rig Wheels Passport

Willys Widgets

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Paralinx LLC

Visual Products

CineTape

Tai Audio

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Aerial Filmworks

Ritter Battery

The Slider

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

Opal

Paralinx LLC

Metropolis Post

Broadcast Solutions Inc

FJS International, LLC

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

rebotnix Technologies

Technodolly

CineTape

Opal

Tai Audio

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

Glidecam

CineLab

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Ritter Battery

The Slider