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Sony HD 750 vs. f900


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#1 Mdpanepinto

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Posted 09 March 2006 - 05:06 PM

I recently shot a movie in Santorini, Greece with the Sony 750 with Canon Lens at 25p. Soon I will begin shooting the NYC portion of the Picture. The Sony f900 is much easier and cost effective to get in the US. Would there be a noticeable difference if I used the f900 at 25p?
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#2 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 08:35 AM

I've never looked at them side by side, but the HDW 750 has a slightly more video quality than the F900.

If you know the knee point and slope, together with the gamma table and other setting used on the HDW 750 you can check with the US rental company if they can match them. Unfortunately the menus are different, so there's not a straight transfer between them.

The F900 has a smoother look compared to the HDW 750. However, I suspect you'd be OK if you're not inter cutting between the cameras in the same sequence, trying to match stuff in NY to material shot in Europe. If the cameras are shooting stand alone sequences this shouldn't be an issue.

I'd talk to your colourist about any problems they think may occur.
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#3 Mdpanepinto

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:06 AM

I've never looked at them side by side, but the HDW 750 has a slightly more video quality than the F900.

If you know the knee point and slope, together with the gamma table and other setting used on the HDW 750 you can check with the US rental company if they can match them. Unfortunately the menus are different, so there's not a straight transfer between them.

The F900 has a smoother look compared to the HDW 750. However, I suspect you'd be OK if you're not inter cutting between the cameras in the same sequence, trying to match stuff in NY to material shot in Europe. If the cameras are shooting stand alone sequences this shouldn't be an issue.

I'd talk to your colourist about any problems they think may occur.

Dear Brian:
Thank you, I will speak with my colourist.

cheers,
Matthew
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#4 Mr. Macgregor

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 08:44 PM

Dear Brian:
Thank you, I will speak with my colourist.

cheers,
Matthew



Are you sure? I read the CCDs are the same in both models. maybe the info was wrong or the post processing chips make the difference.

Edited by macgregor, 18 March 2006 - 08:46 PM.

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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 09:02 PM

Well, they both have 1920 x 1080 pixel CCD's I believe. But the 750 has a 10-bit A/D converter while the F900 has a 12-bit A/D converter, which leads to somewhat smoother tonal gradations, hence why some people feel the 750 is slightly more video-ish looking.
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 12:41 PM

Are you sure? I read the CCDs are the same in both models. maybe the info was wrong or the post processing chips make the difference.


Hi,

I have mentioned this before, IMHO the F900 is far better than the 750. The dynamic range is better and the highlights are smoother.

Stephen
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#7 Mr. Macgregor

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 12:43 PM

Hi,

I have mentioned this before, IMHO the F900 is far better than the 750. The dynamic range is better and the highlights are smoother.

Stephen



Therefore, the posprocessing chip boards are the responsable for the quality increase.
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 12:53 PM

Therefore, the posprocessing chip boards are the responsable for the quality increase.


Hi,

Also the CCD's are graded, the best make it into the F900.

Stephen
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#9 deluxe

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 12:21 PM

Hi,

Also the CCD's are graded, the best make it into the F900.

Stephen


Hello Stephen, mind to give us a source for this "information"? I am curious, as my source, which happens to be Sony Professional Platninium Support, tells me different - the 900 and 750 share the same optical block.

To reply to the question:

We operate 750 & 900 side by side since 2003 - no visual differences if matched.
Both Cameras are HDCAM, which is 8 bit, so 10bit(750) and 12bit(900) aren´t the bottleneck.

The 900 is much more common in the U.S.A. - which is logical, as it also does 24 and was much earlier in the market.
The 750 does 25, which isn´t a problem in Europe, and is more common over here.

The new 900h3 shares body, expansions, lightweight, noiseless operation, less power consumption, HD-SDI out with the 750. This, btw, made us buy a 750 instead of a 900 back in 2003.
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#10 Stephen Williams

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 12:58 PM

Hello Stephen, mind to give us a source for this "information"? I am curious, as my source, which happens to be Sony Professional Platninium Support, tells me different - the 900 and 750 share the same optical block.


Hi,

The optical block is the same, however the most perfect ones end up in the 900.

Stephen
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#11 Michael Maier

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 02:22 PM

I just think there must be a reason why the F900 costs more. It can't be just the 2bit difference.
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#12 Stephen Williams

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 02:45 PM

I just think there must be a reason why the F900 costs more. It can't be just the 2bit difference.


Hi,

Selecting only the best components like optical blocks can easily double the production costs. I remember 15 years ago BBC graphic design dept saying the Sony M7 camera was as good as the BVP7. For capturing still images on a rostrum camera it probably was.

Stephen
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#13 deluxe

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 03:52 PM

Hi,

The optical block is the same, however the most perfect ones end up in the 900.

Stephen


Hello Stephen, mind to give us a source for this "information"?

I am curious, as my source, which happens to be Sony Professional Platinium Support, tells me different.

Furthermore, i couldn´t find different prices for replacement blocks as well.

Do you refer to the 900r or the "old" 900 btw?
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#14 deluxe

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 04:03 PM

I just think there must be a reason why the F900 costs more. It can't be just the 2bit difference.


don´t let the marketing guys foolish you. you can rest assured that sony isn´t calculating its prices based on manufacturing cost alone. every price of a product is defined by much more factors, r&d, market positions, competition, availibity to name a few.

the main selling point of the old 900 was 24p and its time to market - not image quality, features or ergnomics. the "new" 900r has all the new functions & ergonomics of the 750, which the "old" 900 didn´t have.
we however, may pick up a 2nd 900r/750 this year - but certainly not an used old 900.

Edited by deluxe, 14 April 2006 - 04:04 PM.

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#15 Stephen Williams

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 06:27 AM

Hello Stephen, mind to give us a source for this "information"?


Hi,

Its normal business practace. Nikon do the same with the D70s v D50. Dead pixels can't be fixed just hidden!

Sony is very clever because they can sell several thousand 750's to people who could not pay for a 900. If those people can't see the difference then everybody wins!

There will be people who claim there is no difference between a HVX and a Varicam, I guess they bought the HVX!

Stephen
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#16 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 07:59 AM

Hi,

Bear in mind that "a 2 bit difference" means four times the resolution!

Phil
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#17 Tom Bays

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 09:25 AM

I saw a difference when i paused my media in editing...It's one of those things you might not notice as much when playing. When you stop it is a big difference.
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#18 deluxe

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 05:48 AM

Hi,

Its normal business practace. Nikon do the same with the D70s v D50. Dead pixels can't be fixed just hidden!

Sony is very clever because they can sell several thousand 750's to people who could not pay for a 900. If those people can't see the difference then everybody wins!

There will be people who claim there is no difference between a HVX and a Varicam, I guess they bought the HVX!

Stephen


Ok Steven - so we can now then remark that:
a) you don´t have a source that sony is using "b-grade" optic blocks in the 750.
B) are you speculating that this might be the case or do you actually claim it?
c) opinon & heresay are no facts.
sony platinium support tells different. so do the spare parts.
avs & w/n cologne (which are independent service&repair houses for hdcam & lenses) tell different.

then, you claim that you see a difference between calibrated 750&900 - please elaborate.

as when we use both together, we first calibrate both with our astro, shoot side by side and then edit them together, we don´t even have a preference for a or b camera between the 750/900. so please fill me in what i (and the other 36 people here) don´t see.

btw - regarding the price: when we choose the 750 over the 900 back in 2003, the offer we got for the 900 was lower.

that might have to do with the fact that we have bought all the option for the 750 (colorvierfinder & extension, downconverter, slowshutter, wireless multichannel audio, imagecacheboard etc).

Also we HAD to buy a new 750 instead of a demo 900.

On the other hand, the camera is one of the cheap parts of such an invest, the NLEs did cost quite a bit more. (we bought 2 HD NLE, 2 BVM Class 1 HD Monitors, HDW 2000 VCR, some servers, Lenses, Chrosziel, Tripods etc).

We choose the 750 as it has
HD-SDI,
the Colorviewfinder (backk then not available on the 900),
was leighter,
running longer on batteries,
and extremly important for us, makes no noise, different from the old 900
and offered better creative possibilties due to the memory cache & slowshutter.

Money was reason 2, the 900 demoed gear (28 hours) would have been QUITE a bit cheaper than the 750, but it was & is the better camera for us.

We bought the gear for a 16 episode documentary-travel-show btw, all shot & postproduced in HD and one full feature, back then.

I like internet forums, but they can be often a place of bizarre myths.






Hi,

Bear in mind that "a 2 bit difference" means four times the resolution!

Phil


HDCAM is 8 bit, not 12 or 10.

if you use HD-SDI out, you can record 10bit to disk (what we do for VFX shots & cinematic releases)

BTW: The usual HDV-Cameras have 14bit. So they have 16 times the resolution.

Guys - HDCAM records YUV 3:1:1/7:1DCT@8bit. period. All the information is remapped.
12bit or better raw WOULD be helpful, if you actually get it recorded. this isn´t the case.







I saw a difference when i paused my media in editing...It's one of those things you might not notice as much when playing. When you stop it is a big difference.


2 900s or 2 750s can look completly different to each another.

one has to calibrate if you are shooting multicamera.

recently, we had a post-job and had no influence on the shooting itself. 2 900s (the old ones). both different gammas...
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#19 Stephen Williams

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Posted 25 April 2006 - 02:19 PM

Ok Steven - so we can now then remark that:
a) you don´t have a source that sony is using "b-grade" optic blocks in the 750.
B) are you speculating that this might be the case or do you actually claim it?
c) opinon & heresay are no facts.
sony platinium support tells different. so do the spare parts.
avs & w/n cologne (which are independent service&repair houses for hdcam & lenses) tell different.

then, you claim that you see a difference between calibrated 750&900 - please elaborate.

as when we use both together, we first calibrate both with our astro, shoot side by side and then edit them together, we don´t even have a preference for a or b camera between the 750/900. so please fill me in what i (and the other 36 people here) don´t see.

btw - regarding the price: when we choose the 750 over the 900 back in 2003, the offer we got for the 900 was lower.

that might have to do with the fact that we have bought all the option for the 750 (colorvierfinder & extension, downconverter, slowshutter, wireless multichannel audio, imagecacheboard etc).

Also we HAD to buy a new 750 instead of a demo 900.

On the other hand, the camera is one of the cheap parts of such an invest, the NLEs did cost quite a bit more. (we bought 2 HD NLE, 2 BVM Class 1 HD Monitors, HDW 2000 VCR, some servers, Lenses, Chrosziel, Tripods etc).

We choose the 750 as it has
HD-SDI,
the Colorviewfinder (backk then not available on the 900),
was leighter,
running longer on batteries,
and extremly important for us, makes no noise, different from the old 900
and offered better creative possibilties due to the memory cache & slowshutter.

Money was reason 2, the 900 demoed gear (28 hours) would have been QUITE a bit cheaper than the 750, but it was & is the better camera for us.

We bought the gear for a 16 episode documentary-travel-show btw, all shot & postproduced in HD and one full feature, back then.

I like internet forums, but they can be often a place of bizarre myths.
HDCAM is 8 bit, not 12 or 10.

if you use HD-SDI out, you can record 10bit to disk (what we do for VFX shots & cinematic releases)

BTW: The usual HDV-Cameras have 14bit. So they have 16 times the resolution.

Guys - HDCAM records YUV 3:1:1/7:1DCT@8bit. period. All the information is remapped.
12bit or better raw WOULD be helpful, if you actually get it recorded. this isn´t the case.
2 900s or 2 750s can look completly different to each another.

one has to calibrate if you are shooting multicamera.

recently, we had a post-job and had no influence on the shooting itself. 2 900s (the old ones). both different gammas...



Hi,

I will get my eyes tested! I prefer to believe what I see with my eyes rather than what I hear from people with a vested interest in equipment.

Your milage clearly varies.

Cheers

Stephen
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#20 deluxe

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 01:23 AM

Hi,

I will get my eyes tested! I prefer to believe what I see with my eyes rather than what I hear from people with a vested interest in equipment.

Your milage clearly varies.

Cheers

Stephen


i only can recommend this.

addiotionally, before posting nonsense, you also might want to underline your points with testing equipment, which i will rent out for test purposes for free to you, steven - i really like your work (and gear ;) .

believe me - before i invest > $500.000 i usually take some testrides.

i have learned - in the times before the internet - that opinion and heresay isn´t fact. the expensive way.
that is why i dare to respond here. people might follow wrong advice.

so - once more - my clear answer to the starter of this thread, from

- someone who operates and meanwhile owns BOTH cameras, 900 & 750 on a daily basis:

they share the same optical unit
they share the same VCR
they share the same IPU.
they share the shooted images - if you calibrate them.

there is no difference in image quality.
there is a difference in frame rate; and if you use the discontinued 900, also in ergonomics and creatve possibilities.

if you use the new 900 and the classic 750 - same images for you.
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