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shoot 18 fps, scan 18 fps


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#1 Charlie Wuppermann

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 10:07 PM

hello,

i was wondering if anyone knows a couple of films I could look at as a reference which were shot and scanned at 18 or 12 fps? I know that this technique gives a motion blur (especially if you shoot 8 or 6 fps), but I was wondering if and how much the less excessive use of this tecnique shows and what it feels like.

thank you!

charlie
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#2 Austin Schmidt

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 12:55 AM

The motion blur you are talking about is achieved through telecine. Most professional films do not create this "blurring effect" through telecine, rather through the optical process of step-printing. They look relatively the same however the process of creating them are different. Some films that use the step printing technique are "Saving Private Ryan", "ChungKing Express", "Gangs of New York", "Gladiator". However, these might not be useful as we don't know exactly what frame rates they shot. If you are wanting to see what the various frame rate choices and frame rate transfers look like when done in telecine, I would recommend shooting tests and transfering them at the post house you plan to use for your film. Post houses will usually make you pay for the tests, but then will apply a credit to your account when you actually use them for the final product, so in essence you are getting the testing for free. I actually tested this very thing extensively. Though I was shooting the final piece in 35mm, I shot in 16mm using an Arri S. It was an easy and cheap way to see all the effects and helped me and my director narrow down to what we wanted.
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#3 Jamie Metzger

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 01:03 AM

The motion blur you are talking about is achieved through telecine. Most professional films do not create this "blurring effect" through telecine, rather through the optical process of step-printing. They look relatively the same however the process of creating them are different. Some films that use the step printing technique are "Saving Private Ryan", "ChungKing Express", "Gangs of New York", "Gladiator". However, these might not be useful as we don't know exactly what frame rates they shot. If you are wanting to see what the various frame rate choices and frame rate transfers look like when done in telecine, I would recommend shooting tests and transfering them at the post house you plan to use for your film. Post houses will usually make you pay for the tests, but then will apply a credit to your account when you actually use them for the final product, so in essence you are getting the testing for free. I actually tested this very thing extensively. Though I was shooting the final piece in 35mm, I shot in 16mm using an Arri S. It was an easy and cheap way to see all the effects and helped me and my director narrow down to what we wanted.


I think he's talking about when your actor act's twice as slow, when you shoot 48 FPS, and the subjects in the background are moving reqular speed, and then you playback at 24, so you get people super slow motion, and the actor in real time.

Vice versa.
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#4 Austin Schmidt

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 01:48 PM

Jaimie, that might be what he means to refer to but not what it sounds like he is asking. If he is in fact wanting to shoot with actors action at different frame rates within the same shot then motion-capture equipment is utilized to create that effect. This is usually seen in music videos, most notably in the recent Green Day pieces, however, some narrative films use this as well such as in "Requiem for a Dream".

My guess though is that becaue his question was about references "which were shot and scanned at 18 or 12 fps." he is wanting information regarding my first post. Though again I could be wrong. If you need any additional information or want a few things cleared up, feel free to ask more questions Charlie.
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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 02:08 PM

If he is in fact wanting to shoot with actors action at different frame rates within the same shot then motion-capture equipment is utilized to create that effect.


Hi,

I think you mean Motion Control (MOCO)

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#6 Austin Schmidt

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 02:29 PM

Right again Stephen. I referred to equipment sometimes used for animation. Thank you for the correction.
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#7 Charlie Wuppermann

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 03:13 PM

hey austin,

thanks for your replies. you were right, what I am looking for is references for 18 and 12 fps. I know the effect of sstep printing (or doing it in telecine) and I even used it before but only in the extreme version of 6 fps. I also know that there is a lot of further things that can be done like actors moving faster and slower, etc. BUT I was asking for references since I am shooting something at the end of this week, it is a very short piece and there is no money and time for testing, so that I was looking for something to show my director what I mean. The shoot itself could then become the perfect test .... I don't think the effect will be very visible anyway, especially with 18 fps. But as you said, there are some films who used it, but one can never be sure what the framerate was excately. any further ideas for films?

thanks again!

charlie
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#8 Austin Schmidt

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 12:26 AM

I will look at my tests and try to visually describe the differences as to what is being seen in relationship to the camera speed and the actor's movement. Hopefully this will give you a ballpark in which to make a very loose educated decision.
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#9 Austin Schmidt

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 12:27 PM

Charlie, I looked at my tests this morning. They were a series of an actor moving (climbing on a couch and doing karate chops) while we followed him with the camera. We did shoot at 12 fps and transfered at 12. This was more of the step printing effect that I've seen in movies. The body movements are slowed down (by about half I guess) and there is a definete blur to the image. Any camera movement is more pronounced and feels very appartent though. I did not do tests at 18 fps however, I would assume the above results would be lessened. An interesting side note was the footage shot at 24 and 35 fps transferred at 12. The body movement appears to be much slower (replicating high-speed photography) but with more blurring (though not as much as the 12fps transferred at 12) compared to high-speed photography. However the biggest difference is in the camera movement. The camera seems to be a little more poetic and "softer". Not as obvious.

Edited by A.Schmidt, 14 March 2006 - 12:28 PM.

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#10 Charlie Wuppermann

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Posted 15 March 2006 - 11:58 AM

thank you very much for your time and effort!
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