Jump to content


Photo

"Kirk" Light


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 Thomas Worth

Thomas Worth
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 372 posts
  • Director
  • Los Angeles

Posted 14 March 2006 - 11:14 AM

Here's a still from a Duran Duran video. I noticed there was a nice, clean "rectangle" of light over the first guy's eyes. The thing is, the light gradually moves up his face in the video, so I don't think it's a matter of cutting the light with a couple flags. It seems as though there is a snoot or something on the light giving it a sharp edge. I'd like to experiment with this myself. Any ideas?

Posted Image
  • 0

#2 Chainsaw

Chainsaw
  • Guests

Posted 14 March 2006 - 12:49 PM

This effect is achieved by using a focusable ellipsoidal source such as a Leko, follow spot, Moleipso, or Focal Spot attachment. These are not fresnel or open-face lamps but rather a convex/plano-convex lensed unit that is focusable like a spotlight or projector. In lieu of barndoors these units have steel cutters that slide in behind the frontal array of lens elements and produce a very hard cut and can be used to shape the light. If a softer cut is desired the lamp can easily be de-focused for a softer edge. Steel gobo patterns are also very common for these units.

A few pertinent links:

Moleipso/Focal Spot

Leko

Gobo Examples
  • 0

#3 John Pytlak RIP

John Pytlak RIP

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 3499 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Rochester, NY 14650-1922

Posted 14 March 2006 - 02:11 PM

On a budget, you could use something as simple as a slide projector, making a mask on a slide to give the desired focused shape.
  • 0

#4 Brian Wells

Brian Wells
  • Sustaining Members
  • 438 posts
  • Other

Posted 15 March 2006 - 01:25 AM

Dedolight has a projector attachment for their 150w light, but the price is pretty steep with a full kit going for around $1,100. LTM also makes a Focal Spot attachment for the Pepper 100w light at a more attractive price; full kits are going for around $300. BTW, your site inspires me to get a Konvas 35mm camera! Nice work.
  • 0

#5 rbg

rbg
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 31 posts
  • Director
  • Santa Monica

Posted 15 March 2006 - 01:30 AM

Here's a still from a Duran Duran video. I noticed there was a nice, clean "rectangle" of light over the first guy's eyes. The thing is, the light gradually moves up his face in the video, so I don't think it's a matter of cutting the light with a couple flags. It seems as though there is a snoot or something on the light giving it a sharp edge. I'd like to experiment with this myself. Any ideas?

Posted Image


Hey-

You can rent a leko at most lighting rental houses for 20-30 dollars. They're only 575 watt, but depending on the degree of the lense, can be pretty bright. You can also get a pattern holder and put steel gobo patterns in them that are focusable. The cutters(like shutters) are super quick and easy to work with. I use these lights on stages frequently and they're really cool.

RBG
  • 0

#6 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 15 March 2006 - 02:55 AM

An ellipsoidal such as a Source 4 is indeed the easiest way to go -- in fact they're useful lights to have on hand regardless.

But in the absence of an ellipsoidal, you can make a distinct shadow pattern with a fairly sharp light source and a "gobo" cut out of showcard or whatever, fairly close to your subject. You can also use a mirror masked to a slit shape, and bounce a sharp source off that if you want the beam to move. But it's all about getting enough distance between the gobo or mirror and the light source to make the edges of the pattern sharp.
  • 0

#7 James Steven Beverly

James Steven Beverly
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4199 posts
  • Director
  • El Paso, Texas

Posted 15 March 2006 - 03:15 AM

On a budget, you could use something as simple as a slide projector, making a mask on a slide to give the desired focused shape.


If your really broke, A halogen worklight or outdoor spot light w/ a slot cut in a piece of sheet metal to cover the front would work too.
  • 0

#8 Matt Sandstrom

Matt Sandstrom
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 464 posts
  • Director
  • Stockholm, Sweden

Posted 15 March 2006 - 03:51 AM

If your really broke, A halogen worklight or outdoor spot light w/ a slot cut in a piece of sheet metal to cover the front would work too.

would it really? seems like that would only really cut the amount of light and not produce a pattern. such a light with a mask close to the subject would work though. btw if you can't afford a used slide projector you probably can't afford a worklight either. :-)

/matt
  • 0

#9 santo

santo
  • Guests

Posted 15 March 2006 - 08:23 AM

A mirror gives nice hard edge light with sharp cut-offs. Go down to the dollar store and buy one. I could get that Duran Duran look for $5.
  • 0

#10 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11937 posts
  • Other

Posted 15 March 2006 - 05:07 PM

Hi,

There's two ways to project a sharp shape:

- Have the shape cookie a large number of multiples of the size of the lightsource distant from it,
- Use an optical system.

Phil
  • 0

#11 Hal Smith

Hal Smith
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2280 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • OKC area

Posted 15 March 2006 - 06:17 PM

Hey-

You can rent a leko at most lighting rental houses for 20-30 dollars. They're only 575 watt, but depending on the degree of the lense, can be pretty bright. You can also get a pattern holder and put steel gobo patterns in them that are focusable. The cutters(like shutters) are super quick and easy to work with. I use these lights on stages frequently and they're really cool.

RBG


An ETC Source Four with a 19 degree lens barrel (nominal 15 degree beam) in it and an HPL 750 watt lamp will project a pattern with an intensity of 400 foot candles from 25 feet away. As noted in the other posts, there are four shutters which can cut the beam to almost any straight sided pattern - the shutters not only move in and out but will also rotate sideways quite a bit. In addition the entire front of the fixture with the lenses and shutters will rotate +/- 180 degrees. Source Four 19's intensity drops off about 7% per degree from center, that needs to be kept in account in using them, one can trade off peak intensity and field flatness some with the lampholder adjustments readily accessible on the back of the fixture. A Source Four can get light into and behind tight places that open faced and Fresnels with barn doors and flags can't because of their limited pattern shaping. For instance, you can throw back light through a doorway and never touch the door frame or flare on the ceiling, etc. but still fill the entire opening with light as the sun would. Source Four's have pretty much taken over the Leko business in big time theatre. You go to a Broadway show in NY and 80% of the conventional fixtures being used are S4's.

Edmond, OK
  • 0

#12 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 15 March 2006 - 06:46 PM

A mirror gives nice hard edge light with sharp cut-offs. Go down to the dollar store and buy one. I could get that Duran Duran look for $5.



I'd do this or use a source four.
  • 0

#13 James Steven Beverly

James Steven Beverly
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4199 posts
  • Director
  • El Paso, Texas

Posted 15 March 2006 - 08:34 PM

would it really? seems like that would only really cut the amount of light and not produce a pattern. such a light with a mask close to the subject would work though. btw if you can't afford a used slide projector you probably can't afford a worklight either. :-)

/matt


That's pretty much how you do it although it you move the metal away from the light's face and contol the bleed you can set the light back further if need be, however I'm not sure what a used slide projector goes for, if you can find one now adays in a thrifty shop, but a screw in spot or flood goes for 2 or 3 bucks so I'm guessing it's probably cheaper than a projector.
  • 0

#14 Brian Wells

Brian Wells
  • Sustaining Members
  • 438 posts
  • Other

Posted 15 March 2006 - 10:24 PM

That's pretty much how you do it although it you move the metal away from the light's face and contol the bleed you can set the light back further if need be

So, you've actually gotten sharp, distinct edges that way? Or, maybe you THINK it will work? Based on experience, I would say that an open face work light with a metal gobo six inches from the globe would cast indistinct edges, functioning more like a scrim than a gobo. To get sharp edges, you need a light with specialized optics. (i.e. - Leko). Or, a LARGE cookie placed near the subject, as others have mentioned.
  • 0

#15 James Steven Beverly

James Steven Beverly
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4199 posts
  • Director
  • El Paso, Texas

Posted 15 March 2006 - 10:48 PM

Try it. see how it looks and then you tell me if it works. Ive tried it and it works perfectly, you can even focus the edges by moving the gobo towards or away from the light. Here's a little expariment to prove my assurtion, get a common flashlight, tear a slot in a sheet of notebook paper, go into a dark room shine the light though the slot onto the wall and move the paper towards and away from the light and you will notice it will sharpen to crystal or diffuse as you need it to. Do you think I wuld suggest something I didn't know works for a fact?
  • 0

#16 Brian Wells

Brian Wells
  • Sustaining Members
  • 438 posts
  • Other

Posted 15 March 2006 - 11:08 PM

Do you think I wuld suggest something I didn't know works for a fact?

Clearly, we have different definitions of "sharp" ;)
  • 0

#17 Chris Keth

Chris Keth
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4427 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • Los Angeles

Posted 15 March 2006 - 11:44 PM

Clearly, we have different definitions of "sharp" ;)



Could be the problem. I do know that the pattern in front of an openface fixture like a work light will cast multiple shadows like a mickey-mole will. They will be hard but there will be several of them which would defeat the purpose.
  • 0

#18 James Steven Beverly

James Steven Beverly
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4199 posts
  • Director
  • El Paso, Texas

Posted 16 March 2006 - 01:49 AM

Again Try it, right now your speculating. Do the expatriment I suggested. It should give an idea of what you can expect. I did this a while back but just to verify my results, I duplicated the basic idea with a flashlight and piece of paper not an hour ago. The edges could be brought to a razor sharpness by carefully adjusting the distance between the wall the paper and the light face. You've got to have a flashlight somewhere and a piece of paper. Try it.
  • 0

#19 Brian Wells

Brian Wells
  • Sustaining Members
  • 438 posts
  • Other

Posted 16 March 2006 - 04:32 AM

Again Try it, right now your speculating. Do the expatriment I suggested.

Capt.Video-

Thank you for your unique and creative ideas on generating patterned backgrounds using flashlights and construction paper.
  • 0

#20 John Pytlak RIP

John Pytlak RIP

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 3499 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Rochester, NY 14650-1922

Posted 16 March 2006 - 10:10 AM

You should be able to find some pretty good deals on used slide and filmstrip projectors that could be used as a focused light source.
  • 0


FJS International, LLC

CineLab

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Abel Cine

Glidecam

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Willys Widgets

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

rebotnix Technologies

Wooden Camera

Opal

Aerial Filmworks

CineTape

Paralinx LLC

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks

The Slider

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

FJS International, LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Willys Widgets

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineLab

Opal

Wooden Camera

Ritter Battery

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Technodolly

Visual Products

Tai Audio

Metropolis Post

Abel Cine

Rig Wheels Passport

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineTape