Panavision Genesis , new HD camera Options

[Mitch Gross]

Check it out--it'll debut at Cinegear this weekend.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/craft...t_id=1000527854

[Eric Steelberg]

This is what I was referring to in my other post.

[Mitch Gross]

Yes, NDAs keep me quiet or at least coy in comments all the time.

[Guest_Pete Wright_*]

Wow, this is real nice. I wonder if and when Sony brand will follow.

[Phil Rhodes]

Hi,

Don't love it just because it says "panavision" on the side. "Panavision" is rather like "Sony" (no quip intended) - quite nice, but really complicated and expensive.

Phil

[Jason Rodriguez]

When do the NDA's come off and we can get some info. Hopefully not in Novemeber .

Cause I got some questions

[Mike Brennan]

12 megapixels in "super 35 aspect ratio" gives us how many H x V pixels?

Maybe after the bayer filtering (assumption) a true 3k camcorder?

Now they can move on to sorting out dynamic range.

Of course the cost of renting this kit will put it out of reach of 95% of film makers...

A week after demonstrating the 4k projector they announce the 12megapixel camera.

A lot of what Sony does is about capturing the market, not necessarily serving the market.

But with the srw1 recorder delivery being delayed and f950 not being launched outside of the USA, pointers that something was in the wings, this camera may indeed be Sony's international rival to the viper and d20.

Sony's rival to film is still on the drawing board. Will *it* have a Panasinic badge?



Mike Brennan

[Eric Steelberg]

When do the NDA's come off and we can get some info. Hopefully not in Novemeber .

Cause I got some questions

I'll be at Cinegear on Friday to visit my PanaRep and will get some info.

Apparently though, one of the most significant things about this camera is more range in highlights.

I'm also thinking...to myself here...that the sensor will future proof the camera in a way...at least for a while..until a tape or recording format can catch up to the full data potential of the raw data. It should be able to scale to any resolution up to it's native size.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this...Phil?

[Tenolian Bell]

Another article. And another surprise Panavision is also bring another film camera to market.

http://www.uemedia.net/CPC/cinematographer...icle_8554.shtml

[Tenolian Bell]

Also all of these 35mm size chips coming to market puts to rest one of the last myths. That 35mm optics aren't good enough for HD.

[Eric Steelberg]

Well actually, I think that was true and why companies like Panavision made separate HD lenses. They wouldn't have done it if they didn't have to. The reason, as I understand it, is due to the small pixel size of the smaller sensors which neccessitate better glass to get a sharper smaller image focused on the chip. That's a simple way of explaining it. Now there is a larger sensor with presumably larger pixels making a same size image so 35 lenses should be sufficient...unless Panavision also has some new Primo 2s up their sleeves. This is all a guess.

[Jason Rodriguez]

Well, my biggest question is what is being recorded to the HDCAM-SR tape format? Can HDCAM-SR record more than HD resolutions? And can it record multiple frame-rates?

You have a 12 megapixel sensor in there, but especially at 50fps, where is all that information going? Is it being downsampled, or do they ever plan on including method where you can get all the information off that chip to a hard-drive, etc.? How good are their bayer demosaic algorithms, or again, are they planning on sampling the actual resolution to get a 'real' 3K?

Also, how "raw" is the data coming off the camera onto tape? I know it's 10-bit log, but how much processing, matrix, sharpening, etc. is being applied to the image before it hits tape? Is it like the Viper, or is there a number of post-processing fuctions already done to the footage that would limit our control in post?

[Justin Barham]

I'm assuming that the introduction of a Panavision digital camera won't mark the end of their rental-only policy?

[Max Jacoby]

I like this:

"With Genesis, the docking recorder travels on the top and rear of the camera to simulate the look and feel ?- as well as the convenience -- of the Panaflex."

Is this so we won't have to feel embarassed about shooting HD?

[Jason Rodriguez]

Actually I think it's that SRW-1 on the camera that seals the deal for this thing in motion-picture film production for now. Everybody else has wires, etc. coming out the back, but the Panavision will be able to record 10-bit log RGB direct to tape at 880Mbit/s, which is 3:1 compression I believe (or something like that), and that's going to be very good quality, especially if it can handle the highlights well. I mean you shouldn't be able to see any compression artifacting at 3:1 on a first generation copy, especially if it's like digibeta.

So much for Dalsa and the SGI computer they're going to be lugging around, or Arri and the three HD-SDI outputs you'll have to manage (unless you want their 150fps), unless Arri figures out something to get on-board recording that won't tether you to a bunch of wires. For right now I guess the game's Panavision's (oh and they have 50% more resolution to boot-12 Megapixels, that's KODAK's number for the resolution of 35mm film, so there shouldn't be any more complaining that film has "more resolution". Maybe more dynamic range, hopefully that's been fixed in the Panavision to comparable standards of film, but still, they'll be the king of resolution)

[Sam Wells]

For right now I guess the game's Panavision's (oh and they have 50% more resolution to boot-12 Megapixels, that's KODAK's number for the resolution of 35mm film, so there shouldn't be any more complaining that film has "more resolution". Maybe more dynamic range, hopefully that's been fixed in the Panavision to comparable standards of film, but still, they'll be the king of resolution)

Sampling, but as Mike suggests isn't it going to be effectively more like 3K ?

Perverse thought du jour: what if you swapped out the F900 for this on a Vialta telecine

-Sam

[Mike Brennan]

Here are my best guesses in response to some earlier questions and observations about the genesis of Genesis

It is theoretically possible to do a diy trick and bolt the SRW1 onto the f950, 950, D20, Viper or Kinetta. Angle iron and two BNCs are all that are required.

The unexplained delayed introduction of the SRW1 recorder has given the Genesis a head start in the SR 2k+ "camcorder" field.

For the last week I had thought Sony had shot themselves in both feet by announcing a 4K projector without a 3k+ camera to support it... it would have been a good excuse for some producers to continue to bury their heads in the sand (regarding HD cameras) and certainly a 4k projector for $60k was a fillip for those pursuing DI, as it should be. So the last week has been a setback for HD origination in general, in my view, until this announcement.


The SRW1 can record 1920x 1080 dual 444 by compressing 4.2:1. It also has a 2x speed mode that reduces compression of 444 to 2:1 If you combine (my guess) the 4.2:1 compression with the 2x speed mode it is theoretically capable of recording more pixels.

There has to be some number crunching going on with this 12meg head, our old HDCAM friend sampling may come to the fore!


So this camera may "only" be a approx 5.1k x2.3k (super 35mm ratio?) image sampled in camera to fit an existing 1920x1080 recording structure?

However the 4k Dalsa images sampled to 2k have looked better than the 2k originated images in the DCI tests, when projected on the 2k projector.

Originating at higher res reduces aliasing.

Would be interesting to see if their is much lag between Bayer processing of 12megapixels and viewfinder output. However the Accuscene viewfinder may be doing more than converting 444 and displaying 720 p as it does at the moment, it may have the potential for displaying a bayer image "live" I expect.
More than 1/4 second lag makes it impossible to operate remote heads!

Battery consumption will be interesting.

And indeed we don't really know how well 35mm lenses will perform, wibbly wobbly film with a different grain structure from frame to frame is a very different form of recording to a rock solid noiseless sensor being projected one to one on a large screen.

Someone mentioned Sony selling these cameras, this would be a big mistake unless they really revamped their customer support and servicing. Perhaps one specialised dealer per continent could cope with such a high fidelity piece of kit and the customers who intend to use it. I believe they are aware of this:)

This is not the end of the road but just another step. Sony will make money on the recording format not the development of the camera. Just like the development of a 4k projector the goal is hidden aren't for proding 100,00 units for cnemas but 50 million for home cinema.

Fun to guess, hope that their is not too much time and hype before the reality hits.

Hope this post gives stateside DPs some background when quizzing the creators of Genesis.


Mike Brennan

[Jason Rodriguez]

So what do you think Mike, begining of the end for film in most main-stream applications?

I'm just saying this because I too saw the Dalsa footage, and it simply amazed me. If the Panavision does even better, then all I can say is "Whoa".

You'll have the advantage of tape, slo-motion and off-speed effects, super-high resolution that matches 35mm film, a ton of dynamic range, RGB recording, and the cheap flexibility of tape.

What more is there, especially if the Panavision comes in at a competative price point for rentals compared to other digital cinema cameras ($3,000 per day for the Dalsa)?

[Filip Plesha]

Jason, 35mm film is capable of more resolution than 4K.
It all depends on the emulsion of course and your lenses. But if you are using
some film like 5245 on a static shot with no camera movement (no motion blur)
and a good lens, the film can resolve as much as 6K resolution or more.
The response to detail after 6K is pretty low but it still does respond to detail.

[Nate Downes]

Anyone wanna try and compare 4k to 65mm/70mm film?