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why not crossprocessing on kodak negative??


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#1 rajavel

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Posted 18 April 2006 - 04:24 AM

hi all
i recently tested the kodak still photography film with cross processing. i just loved the uncontrollable possiblities it gave interms of the colours. why cant the same happen with the kodak motion picture negatives. is the photochemical process out of reach for the negative. somebody told me that i need reversal stocks for that...unfortunately i dont get reversal stocks in my place(will have to import it even for testing).

is there any other way...i can achieve cross processing style without cross processing!! how does christpher doyle gets his offbeat colours on screen!
thanks
raj
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#2 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 10:52 AM

hi all
i recently tested the kodak still photography film with cross processing. i just loved the uncontrollable possiblities it gave interms of the colours. why cant the same happen with the kodak motion picture negatives. is the photochemical process out of reach for the negative. somebody told me that i need reversal stocks for that...unfortunately i dont get reversal stocks in my place(will have to import it even for testing).

is there any other way...i can achieve cross processing style without cross processing!! how does christpher doyle gets his offbeat colours on screen!
thanks
raj


All of the motion picture color negative films from Kodak and Fuji use a carbon black "rem-jet" antihalation layer. The ECN-2 process has a prebath and rem-jet removal step. Trying to process motion picture color negative film in an E-6, C-41, or B&W process without the required rem-jet removal step will contaminate the machine with rem-jet particles, ruining your film and that of other lab customers.

Certainly you can manipulate colors in post-production. Don't forget what can be achieved by well-established techniques of lighting, set design, costuming, and make-up (e.g., use of fluorescent dyes under UV lighting).
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#3 Dominic Case

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 06:14 PM

is the photochemical process out of reach for the negative. somebody told me that i need reversal stocks for that

Cross-processing means shooting on reversal stock and processing it in the negative process. That's what it is.

You can't do it with negative stock. You can't do it with a reversal process!

Conventional negative stock, processed correctly, has low contrast, to enable it to record a wide brightness range. You need to make a print to increase the contrast and colour enough (and to make it positive!) to make it viewable.

Reversal stock is designed to have enough contrast and colour saturation (when correctly processed) to be viewable directly. When it's processed as negative, you get a negative image with that high contrast and colour. Print that, and you get the excessive, unbalanced colours that are the "cross-processed" look.
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#4 Travis Cline

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 07:27 PM

You can cross-process negative film. You shoot negative and develop it in E-6. This only really works with still photography because of the reasons John listed. I've shot negative and cross-processed, it has similarly unpredictable results as reversal film. When I was in school a friend of mine cross-processed every Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, and Agfa stock and each had its own characteristics. Each quite different from any other, but great stuff. Unfortunately not as easy or available for motion picture stocks.

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#5 Bryan Darling

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Posted 20 April 2006 - 07:40 PM

I've done a lot of E-6 to C-41 cross processing and I've also done VNF in C-41. The great thing about film is its versatility in so many different artistic processes and applications. B&W alone can be processed and manipulated in a lot of different chemistry combinations. There are tons of developers alone, not to mention toners and chemicals for image adjustment. Still photography benefits the most by the versatility.

Unfortunately motion-picture film has suffered from a shrinkage in versatility and opportunities when it comes to the chemical/physical manipulations of the film. In my workshop I teach, I make it a point for the students to take risks and do things the "wrong" way. It really helps to open up their perspectives on film and filmmaking.
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#6 rajavel

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 11:20 AM

thanks to one and all!

rajavel
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#7 Hal Smith

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 12:09 PM

found at: http://www.theasc.co...pdujour/pg5.htm

STRIPPING THE ANTI-HALATION BACKING
An even more exotic lab technique, which is nonetheless noteworthy, is one in which the anti-halation backing is stripped off an original camera negative prior to photography. This method has only been used once in recent history on a major motion picture, for a small flashback sequence in the film Virtuosity, which was photographed by Gale Tattersall (see AC Oct. '95). Tattersall had Vancouver-based Gastown Labs remove the anti-halation backing by running the his raw stock through their processor's first bath, bypassing the rest of the developing steps, and going directly into a completely blacked-out drying box. The unexposed negative was then recanned and shipped back to the production for photography.

The removal of the anti-halation backing allows light passing through the negative during photography to bounce off the rear pressure plate ? which Tattersall replaced in his camera with a custom mirror-surfaced plate ? and cause halation on the film around the highlights. Tattersall likened the effect to the look of old turn-of-the-century photographs. Interestingly, David Watkin, BSC wanted to use this process on the period film Yentl, but it was deemed too risky.

So for what it's worth (IMHO): at least one lab can strip off the anti-halation layer before the film is exposed. I suspect a lab that has E6 processing AND can prior strip the anti-halation would be glad to participate in experimenting with reversal processing of negative motion picture film.

If anyone does this and succeeds - I want a credit!
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#8 Dominic Case

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Posted 22 April 2006 - 03:42 AM

So for what it's worth (IMHO): at least one lab can strip off the anti-halation layer before the film is exposed. I suspect a lab that has E6 processing AND can prior strip the anti-halation would be glad to participate in experimenting with reversal processing of negative motion picture film.

Full marks to Gastown labs for doing the remjet stripping for Gale Tattersall. Almost certainly this operation would have required the entire processing area of the lab to be totally blacked out, or at least a temporary blackout tent constructed around the machine itself. Not an operation to be taken lightly B)

It's worth remembering that while there are often people at labs (particularly smaller ones) who are "glad to participate" in these experiments, all labs have to run on a commercial basis - they have staff to pay - so often there is a limit to what can be done without incurring extra costs, which must reflect the time taken, and also, while these conditions are set-up, the loss of service to other customers, for whom speedy turnaround of rushes is often essential.
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#9 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 08:40 AM

In addition to the extraordinary procedures required to remove rem-jet from the film prior to being used in another process than the regular ECN-2 process, doing what Gastown did for Tatersall may affect other film properties, as the aqueous rem-jet removal step before exposing the film will also remove some of the water-soluble absorbing and sensitizing dyes from the raw stock, significantly changing its photographic properties. If a lab is willing, you certainly can do things like this, but you are definitely in unexplored territory that requires significant testing. :rolleyes:
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#10 Canney

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 06:57 PM

Here a link to a lab that I think does cross processing.

http://www.niagaracu...m/prices.htm#s8

Edited by Canney, 30 April 2006 - 06:57 PM.

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#11 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 10:56 AM

Here a link to a lab that I think does cross processing.

http://www.niagaracu...m/prices.htm#s8


Their listing is for cross-processing color reversal films in the ECN-2 process, which is a limited service many labs offer. I don't know of any lab routinely offering to process motion picture negative film in the E-6 color reversal process, mostly because of need to remove the rem-jet.
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#12 Canney

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 05:48 PM

I think CineLabs does some sort of cross proccessing for 16mm but you would have to ask them.

http://www.cinelab.com

Edited by Canney, 01 May 2006 - 05:49 PM.

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#13 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 09:23 AM

I think CineLabs does some sort of cross proccessing for 16mm but you would have to ask them.

http://www.cinelab.com


I suspect Cinelab is offering cross-processing of color reversal film (e.g., 7285) in the ECN-2 process, NOT color negative film in an E-6 process:

http://www.cinelab.com/rates.php
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#14 Brian L Schilling

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 01:31 AM

Using filters with x-processed film offers a lot of interesting and unpredictable results.
I once x-processed Kodak Color Infrared reversal film. Which is basically a normal color chrome, with some bizarre color-coupler added for the infrared sensitive layer.
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#15 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:06 AM

Using filters with x-processed film offers a lot of interesting and unpredictable results.
I once x-processed Kodak Color Infrared reversal film. Which is basically a normal color chrome, with some bizarre color-coupler added for the infrared sensitive layer.


The colored couplers used are not bizarre, they are just in different layers for this "false color" film, used mostly for aerial photography for camouflage detection and to study health of vegetation:

http://www.kodak.com...pq-locale=en_US

Key Applications
These films are intended for various aerial photographic applications, such as vegetation and forestry surveys, hydrology, and earth resources monitoring where infrared discriminations may yield practical results.


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