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#1 Filip Plesha

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 07:29 PM

I was just wondering...


Fuji does such a great job of making negative films and slide films for photography.
Fuji slide films have made cults around them (sort of like Kodachrome cult), and they make
really good negative films too. Reala 100 is still the finest grain 100ISO negative film out there (if they still make it) plus it comes up 90% times as a recomendation by anyone for its color contrast and skinjob.
Of course portra is great family, but a little grainy compared to similar Fuji products.
Well my point is, though I don't use them much, I do admit that Fuji still products are always the among the best, sometimes they share the first place with Kodak, but rarely do you find a Kodak product being its Fuji equivalent. Though Kodak makes great products, the fuji equivalent is often one step ahead (astia vs. E100G, EPY vs. 64T etc. ) , though Kodak 400UC is a star without a Fuji match.
But that's all technical stuff, and I'm not a very technical man, so just follow my guts and stick to some great Kodak products that I like, though when I seek clarity, realism etc. some Fuji films often have the edge..

Well that's a long intro..

I guess what I was about to ask is: how are Fuji motion picture products? Are they as good as their still products?

How would you compare them to their Kodak equivalents (64 vs. 5245/5201 eterna 500 vs. vision2 500 etc.)
and what would you think their strengths and weaknesses are compared to Kodak motion picture films?

And does the old Fuji blues-greens myth hold any water in motion picture world?



This is a post just out of curriosity, and for fun, and of course to learn something new..
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#2 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 29 April 2006 - 10:04 PM

Though Kodak makes great products, the fuji equivalent is often one step ahead (astia vs. E100G, EPY vs. 64T etc. ) , though Kodak 400UC is a star without a Fuji match.
But that's all technical stuff, and I'm not a very technical man, so just follow my guts and stick to some great Kodak products that I like, though when I seek clarity, realism etc. some Fuji films often have the edge..


Beauty in in the eye of the beholder. You may personally prefer some of Fuji's films, but I don't think it is a matter of being "one step ahead". Most of the technical advances found in today's films (colored coupler masking, DIR couplers, T-grains, 2-electron releasing, etc.) were pioneered by Kodak. The Kodak VISION2 films were introduced over three years ago, and led the way for the latest advances.
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 03:57 AM

I guess what I was about to ask is: how are Fuji motion picture products? Are they as good as their still products?

How would you compare them to their Kodak equivalents (64 vs. 5245/5201 eterna 500 vs. vision2 500 etc.)
and what would you think their strengths and weaknesses are compared to Kodak motion picture films?



Filip,

I use both Fuji & Kodak products. The new Eterna range and Vision 2 are both very good. I always get a feeling in telecine that Kodak is slightly magenta v Fuji slightly green, however after 10 seconds of adjustments they both look natural.

Stephen
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#4 Filip Plesha

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 06:02 AM

You may personally prefer some of Fuji's films, but I don't think it is a matter of being "one step ahead"


Like I said in my post, I mostly prefer Kodak products, but not their technical superiority
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#5 Chris Burke

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 07:48 AM

Like I said in my post, I mostly prefer Kodak products, but not their technical superiority



I am making a short on the Eterna 250T. The first batch of dailies are in and look fantastic. The only drawback I have noticed, and I really don't know if this is true, is that the "pitch perforation" isn't as good as Kodak. I am the director of the film, but the DP and AC told me this. we did get some strange sounds from the mag late on night, the AC said that it might be because of this. He also went on to say that with Kodak stocks, you can set your watch to them in terms of "pitch perforation". Also that the stock itself can be a bit softer than Kodak, I mean the actual film, not the look. So we had a film shaving in the gate on one shot, but only one. Other than that I think Fuji is great and really do Like the look. With a best light of our dailies, it did have a sort of blue green bias. This is minute and had a lot to do with our lighting, but it did remind me of Fuji still film. If we continue to have any problems with the stock, i will contact the Fuji rep, but the sound and film shaving was only once and could be attributed to the camera itself. I will post a few clips in a week or so to show you the look.

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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 08:12 AM

but the DP and AC told me this. we did get some strange sounds from the mag late on night, the AC said that it might be because of this. He also went on to say that with Kodak stocks, you can set your watch to them in terms of "pitch perforation". Also that the stock itself can be a bit softer than Kodak, I mean the actual film, Chris


Hi,

I have known some batches of film running louder, once some 7247 that was slightly wider than it should have been. It kept jamming the camera!

I used to find the vision stocks more delicate. I had to change the size of a roller in a Mitchell 10 years ago, because at high speeds there were mild stress marks. Since then never seen the problem again but heard a similar story with some super 16 conversions.

Stephen
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#7 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 10:51 AM

There's a huge anti-Fuji lobby (and I'm not talking about Kodak now) in constant work in the film business. This stems part from protectionism and part from the early Fuji films having a bad rep and part ignorance. Fuji is either green or magenta, chips easily, perfs are bad, gets scratched, sheds backing, doesn't have T-grain technology, is grainy, is cheap (as in bad) and so on. In fact, hardcore Kodak shooters will not even touch the french-made Kodak MP film made for Europe (so they ship in Rochester stock), so you can imagine how unlikely they'd be to shoot stuff made in Japan....

I'm on a soapbox and ranting I know. But I'm sick of getting a frown from producers whenever I chose to go with Fuji. "Fuji? Don't you like Kodak?". I can see they make up their mind right there and then: I'm low rent. And they all of a sudden look at me like I'm something the cat dragged in.

Both are equally good. And bring back Agfa. :P
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#8 Filip Plesha

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 11:46 AM

Wow, I never realised this..thanks

It is so strange that in photography it is sort of reverse, there are anti-Kodak cults like that. There are a lot of people out there among professionals and amateurs that refuse to buy anything Kodak because they believe its inferior.
But that's only recently, 10 years ago Kodak was making a lot of products which people would die for, and now that Kodak is acting like they are abandoning film (I'm talking about the still market) and have discontinued almost all of the "cult" products, many people have become Fuji-purists.
But I think it more depends on the psychology than the products themselfs, because on one hand you have Kodak CEO saying he doesn't care about film, and saying it is dead in 2 years, and on the other hand you have Fuji who every january promisess to stay loyal to tradition photographic materials as much as they can. So of course that affects people's heads.

But anyway, while it is definitvley a myth there is some kind of a general idea among advanced amateurs and professionals, both in US and over here where I live that Kodak products are far inferior to ones made by Fuji.
Among consumers the idea is reverse I think, they trust Kodak more.

I try to stay objective. While Fuji does set the modern standard for grain, tonality, color etc. Kodak offers products that are often just as good (not always) and sometimes even better (like when comparing 400UC to Fuji 400 negative film)

John, well, yea Kodak has sort of invented modern film, but it seems Fuji has stood upon Kodak's shoulders and used these technologies (and added some new) making sometimes even superior products.

Edited by Filip Plesha, 30 April 2006 - 11:49 AM.

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#9 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 07:38 PM

But anyway, while it is definitvley a myth there is some kind of a general idea among advanced amateurs and professionals, both in US and over here where I live that Kodak products are far inferior to ones made by Fuji.

John, well, yea Kodak has sort of invented modern film, but it seems Fuji has stood upon Kodak's shoulders and used these technologies (and added some new)



In some groups of people I have seen a sort of reverse not-invented-here outlook. If something is made in a far off place, and perhaps is a bit off the beated track is is somehow intrinsicaly more interesting. When I was in high school I used to buy bulk still film from Freestyle sales in Hollywood. I recall getting some Plus-x-areo, which must have been re-slit and re-perfed as it sure did not have any edge markings. It also did not have a grey base, and seemed to have a weird spectral responce, BUT I had it and my friends could not go to the local photo store and get the same thing. I also ordered a roll of Tri-X 417 one time, far better than TX 402 because it came on a spool not a core. (this is still camera Tri-X)

I probaly still have that streak, as I buy Ukranian Beer (http://ukiestore.com) from the LCBO , when Canadian beer is at every beer store. :)

Fuji and Kodak have been trying to one-up each other for years. This is good for the consumer, although I am sure that both firms could deposit more money in the bank if they were not forced by the fight to keep improving their products. In Still camera film, the results from run of the mill Kodak Max GOld, or Fuji Superia are litteraly decades better than the film I shot 30 years ago. In fact I have managed to get some of my ASA 100 Still stock get deep out of date, I used ot keep ASA 100 In one camera and asa 400 In another, in the last several yaers I have not been able ot dee any real advantage in the 100.

I am assured that when either introduces a new product, mystery shoppers from the other firms lab are first in line ot get samples to test. Our good friend John probaly has shot as much Fuji as he has shot Kodak in the secret lab studio on State street in Rochester. Any edge one has is quickly reverse engineered and used to improve the other products. This is a great deal for US consumers.

AS far as digital goes, Kodak is having to re-invent themselves as a digital image producer. This is on one hand not hard as they have probaly more knowledge about how folks see, and how optics and stuff work than anyone in the world. Their fear is that folks might shop elesewhere for digital as the felling is that Kodak is old school. Some of the remarks you have heard are probaly intened to keep Wall Street aware that Kodak is the leader in digital as well.
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#10 Filip Plesha

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Posted 30 April 2006 - 08:10 PM

You see the CEO says that digital camera market is a dinosaur which can't evolve just like film, and that the future of kodak is neither in film nor digital cameras, but in micro CCD's (like the ones used in cellphones) and display technologies.
I don't really believe that new CEO guy, with all due respect to everyone at Kodak, I think he is an idiot, and knows little of the realities of what Kodak does.
I mean how can a Kodak CEO be so ignorant to the current situation to predict that motion picture film will last for maybe "two years" (that's a quote). What kind of CEO is it that doesn't even know the current situation of the sales of his own company.
But anyway, if he IS right, then Kodak is going to become a mockery of what it once was.

Well, this is getting out of topic a bit.
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#11 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 10:50 AM

You need to put Mr. Perez' comment in the context of where it was made -- at the Consumer ELECTRONICS Show. From a personal point of view, I've been actively working on two new multi-million dollar FILM development programs at Kodak, and have colleagues working on a few others. With SEVEN new VISION2 films introduced in the past few years, it's obvious that Kodak has continued to make significant investments in motion-picture film products.

I've learned not to try to predict the future, but so far, the film optimists have been more accurate. :-)

Whatever the future may bring decades from now, film shot today will meet the needs of future display technologies, just as film shot decades ago is now being transferred to HD and Digital Cinema masters for new markets. Film IS future-proof, even if decades from now, Kodak eventually decides to stop making film.

Every film manufacturing company has to adjust their portfolio of film offerings to reflect marketplace realities. As you know, just last week Fuji had to discontinue some of their film offerings. Agfa Gevaert offers only color print film and sound negative film.

Also from a personal point of view, IMHO for motion-picture products, Kodak has almost always been the technology leader, especially for the significant improvements in emulsion technology like colored coupler masking, DIR couplers, tabular grains, and 2-electron sensitization.
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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 11:06 AM

In fact, hardcore Kodak shooters will not even touch the french-made Kodak MP film made for Europe (so they ship in Rochester stock), so you can imagine how unlikely they'd be to shoot stuff made in Japan....


All the Kodak motion picture camera films are sensitized in Rochester, and have been for quite a few years.
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#13 Filip Plesha

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Posted 01 May 2006 - 04:46 PM

Well, ok maybe mr. Perez was saying these things because those people wanted to hear them, but that's even worse then. It means he was lying intentionally. Either way you put it, this man is NOT a good advertisment for Kodak.
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#14 Aleksandar Bracinac

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 05:25 AM

Must agree with Stephen about the colour rendition of both stocks and also I can say that both stocks are very very good.

I've shoot last two jobs with Eterna 500 8573 and the stock is really low-con, with very fine grain. Next job I will shoot on 7201/7212.

Just choose best from the market for specific job.


Alex
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#15 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 May 2006 - 09:05 AM

Well, ok maybe mr. Perez was saying these things because those people wanted to hear them, but that's even worse then. It means he was lying intentionally. Either way you put it, this man is NOT a good advertisment for Kodak.


Any good speaker tailors the message to the audience. The Consumer Electronics Show doesn't want to hear about how successful and innovative Kodak's motion-picture business is, they want to hear that Kodak is a leader in digital imaging for the consumer. Both are true, it's a matter of which you emphasize.

All I can say is that Mr. Perez continues to approve significant funding for research and development of new motion picture films. IMHO, his actions speak louder than words.
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#16 Mike Welle

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 09:27 PM

Whatever happened to saying what you believe rather than saying what you think other people want to hear? Whatever happened to listening to your conscience rather than what you believe will earn money or sell something or get people's admiration. There's probably a quote in Shakespeare for this, but it reminds me a little of what Richard III (a devilish villain) said after he had a horrible nightmare in which he dreamed of all the people he murdered. After this dream before leading his troops into battle he said this:

"Let not our babbling dreams affright our souls,
Conscience is but a word that cowards use
Devised at first to keep the strong in awe
Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law
March on join bravely, let us to it pell mell
If not to heaven then hand in hand to hell!"

The line: "Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law" shows how Richard believed might was right--which is so, so wrong! If one can rationalize saying what an audience wants to hear in order to get approval, if one can rationalize paying lip service to digital aficianados by hinting at the demise of film, then one can rationalize making up false claims of weapons of mass destruction to kill thousands in Iraq, and one can even rationalize torturing enemy combatants and ignoring the Geneva convention in order to get information, or selling giant SUVs that pollute the environment. Have we come so far as a society that we believe PR can solve everything? It reminds me of how Elvis Costello described: "Nice girls not one with a defect, cellophane shrink-wrapped, so correct." There are places here in Charleston where eveything is plastic, shiny and glossed over. Even the people are plastic, shiny and glossed over. One day all of this will be buried and rotting in the ground--and none of it matters. But we are so concerned what others think of us. "All that glitters is not gold." Morroco read in Merchant of Venice. He also said "Gilded tombs do worms enfold." If someone says something wrong--why can't they take responsibility for it--what is so wrong about making a mistake? I make millions of mistakes. I learn from my mistakes. I believe its acceptable (although not completely honest) to present information in the best possible light as long as you tell the truth, so I agree with John--and I believe this is a capitalist society, and capitalism demands a certain amount of pragmatism. But people lie, and both sides of the story are not always presented, especially by giant media outlets like FOX news which claims to be "fair and balanced." So in the end, because of piggish capitalists, Machiavellian PR moves, and other improprieties I am afraid of hearing the words "(someone) doesn't want to hear" or "they want to hear." I would like to close with these lines from Hastings before he was beheaded by Richard III on how he lamented kissing up to him:

"O momentary grace of mortal men,
Which we more hunt for than the grace of God
Who builds his hopes in air of your good looks,
Lives like a drunken sailor on a mast
Ready with every nod to tumble down,
Into the fatal bowels of the deep"

Mike Welle
Charleson, SC

Any good speaker tailors the message to the audience. The Consumer Electronics Show doesn't want to hear about how successful and innovative Kodak's motion-picture business is, they want to hear that Kodak is a leader in digital imaging for the consumer. Both are true, it's a matter of which you emphasize.

All I can say is that Mr. Perez continues to approve significant funding for research and development of new motion picture films. IMHO, his actions speak louder than words.


Edited by Mike Welle, 05 May 2006 - 09:31 PM.

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#17 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 09:54 PM

Wait a minute, The story is some big-wig at Kodak said at the consumer electriics show that "Film will be dead in Two years' I suspect that _IN CONTEXT_ that may be close to the truth.

The COnsumer electronics folks have taken over as the place where folks buy "snapshot cameras" The corner Camera store which we probaly all rember with fondness, has for the most part faded away. Joe and JIll with their 2 year old child want pictures and so they go to the local "Best Buy" or "circuit City" or "wal-Mart" and they buy a Camera.-- 80% chance it si a digital camera, it might be a "one use" preloaded job . It also may be a 35mm point and shoot..

In a past life I sold cameras to Jim and Jill..(by now probaly their parents if not grand parents) In those days they were Kodak Instamatics and Kodakl Pocket Instamatics, and Olympus Trip 35s and Pentex spotmatics. I was on commison so I used all my tricks to get them to take lots of pictures. Our Buyer was surprised at how OUR store sold more 24 exposure rolls than 12 exposure rolls, unlike every other store in teh chain. I got exeryone to tell folks that they pay less per print with the 24 exposure rols, and explain the caluation. Naturaly we OMITED to say that no mater what size they bought, we expected to see them back in 2 weeks with a full roll. Having more shots available meant that the shutter finger would be more twitchy.

ANyway Thes folks kinda went away after 6 months. Our prices were VERY competitive so in most cases we were not being undercut by another store, they just did not take as many pictures.

So My thinking is that a new film camera bought by a non-photographer will get used for 2 years and then migrate to the closet.. Certainly that is the story I used ot see when the Instamatic was repleced by the pocket instamatic... 126 Sales went right down, while 110 slaes kept climbing.

Today Nikon, and several other players are NO LONGER MAKING FILM CAMERAS. Jim and Jill are not going to see a Nikon One touch at Wal--mart. They are going to be sold a digital camera that uses expensive supplies - but not film. Kodak sells many of the supplies that a digital camera needs. They also are very big in the one hour lab market who are at the moment probaly the best place for Jim and Jill to take the memory card out of their camera to get good quality prints.

BUT Jim and Jill are not likely to buy film in 2 yaers. Kodakcolour Max is likly to be a mail order item.

"film dead is three years" is probaly not a lie in the context of smapshot shooters.
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#18 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 11:22 AM

Charles...

To stop speculating I'll just quote Perez here:

"The movie business is great. Sure it's going to go away, but not in the next two years,"
"All I care about is that it stays with us for two years. If it stays - which I think it will - it will be gravy. But if it starts to go down, it won't bother me."

as for still film:
"Soon, I'm not going to be answering questions about film because I won't know. It will be too small for me to get involved.?


This was for a newspaper, not on an electronics show
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#19 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 01:56 PM

And Eric Rodli, the President of Kodak Entertainment Imaging, says:

And while we continue to invest in the digital post and distribution arenas, we are still very committed to our silver halide business. Did you know that today, we have the fastest color negative film in the world - as well as an expanding new family of color negative products? The Kodak VISION2 Family - now available in 500T, 200T, 100T and 50D speeds, as well as in our softer flesh-tone Expression stock - was built with a full 'systems approach.' We designed the VISION2 technology platform to optimize the entire imaging system. It's a giant step into the future of the moving image.


As I noted, Mr. Perez and the rest of Kodak's upper management continue to support significant R&D spending on motion picture FILM development programs. Actions speak louder than words.
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#20 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 03:13 PM

"Actions speak louder than words"

That saying means that one can talk a lot of stuff, but only if he converts those words to actions can he prove that he was right, and that has nothign to do with this situation
It doesn't mean that one can say one thing and do another thing, that's not what this phrase is talking about.

When one talks a lot about poor people, and gives money to them, then he has proven that he cares, and this is where this phrase applies.
If one says one thing and does the other, the only thing he proves is that he says what people want to hear.
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