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Inducing Ferrotyping


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#1 Chainsaw

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 11:37 AM

Simple question (in theory), what are some techniques that can be apllied to induce ferrotyping in modern color MP film stocks?

I am not referring to harmless "beauty defects" or the still photography printing method but rather a "damaged" (not the correct word but it's the first one I thought of) emulsion.

Obviously heat, humidity and pressure accelerate this process, but exactly how much of each?

And how can this technique be applied so that the film itself is still stable enough for processing and transfer?
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#2 Mike Williamson

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 04:16 PM

Although I'm not sure it causes ferrotyping, Harris Savides has baked his negative in the oven in order to break down the structure of the film. I seem to recall him doing it for the Nine Inch Nails' video "Closer" and for parts of "The Yards" (which he talks about briefly in the book "New Cinematographers"). You could check the archives, I feel like someone posted a link to an article about this. Good luck with it, hope this helps.
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#3 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 05:28 AM

Simple question (in theory), what are some techniques that can be apllied to induce ferrotyping in modern color MP film stocks?

I am not referring to harmless "beauty defects" or the still photography printing method but rather a "damaged" (not the correct word but it's the first one I thought of) emulsion.

Obviously heat, humidity and pressure accelerate this process, but exactly how much of each?

And how can this technique be applied so that the film itself is still stable enough for processing and transfer?


You might be able to cause ferrotyping by winding up slightly damp film, and letting it dry somewhat. But you will have to unwind it before it actually starts sticking together ("blocking") to the extent that the emulsion delaminates when you unwind it.
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#4 Chris Keth

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:52 AM

You might be able to cause ferrotyping by winding up slightly damp film, and letting it dry somewhat. But you will have to unwind it before it actually starts sticking together ("blocking") to the extent that the emulsion delaminates when you unwind it.



There was a project about a year ago here that the guy ran the final edit through a big container of sand to scratch it up a bunch. You could try and convince the lab to greatly overfix your film (I'm assuming this will do the same thing in color stock as in B&W, make the surface of the emulsion look like a dried up lakebed)


Maybe try rewinding the film somewhat loosely on a reel or a core and then tighten it so that it rubs against itself, etc. Maybe combine that with John's idea of having it somewhat wet.

Edited by Christopher D. Keth, 04 May 2006 - 10:54 AM.

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#5 Dominic Case

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 05:45 PM

I don't think this question is about scratching the film or peeling the emulsion right off.

Ferrotyping - as I understand it - is the effect of a highly glossy surface on the emulsion caused by allowing it to roll up still slighty damp, at high tension. As it finally dries and hardens, it takes on the gloss of the back of the next turn of film - glazing - in patches according to the contact with the next turn. Usually this is a very blotchy effect, and if an optical print is made from the negative, you see a fluctuating dappled effect especially at the edges of the glazed patches, as the light is scattered by the surface of the emulsion.

Correctly processed film is dry before it takes up, and the emulsion forms a matte surface.

The gloss in glossy paper prints used to be obtained by drying them on a highly polished sheet of glass or a heated metal plate. If the plate was dirty they would stick like glue: if you didn't wet them enough you would get blobs that weren't glossy. It's the same effect.

Not sure why you'd want to do this deliberately - but maybe you do :blink: Maybe you take the processed film, wind it slowly over a steamer, and take it up very (but unevenly) tight. Leave it a few days and see if it worked. More practically, maybe you look at a digital effect in post.
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#6 K Borowski

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 06:08 PM

The gloss in glossy paper prints used to be obtained by drying them on a highly polished sheet of glass or a heated metal plate. If the plate was dirty they would stick like glue: if you didn't wet them enough you would get blobs that weren't glossy. It's the same effect.


Used to? :P
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#7 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 07:48 PM

Used to? :P

MOST Glossy prints these days are made on RC ppaer which is naturaly glossy and takes on a very shiny gloss just be being dried with hot air. You still can do it the old fashoned wayif you want.

As far as gettingthe effect in film, just wind it up damp and let it dry, as others have said you may pull the emuslion right off If you are not careful. This may or maynot create a visable effect on the prints. I would guess. Certainly I would guess it would probaly be hidden on a wet gate print, unless some of the emuslion did pull off.
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#8 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 08:17 PM

MOST Glossy prints these days are made on RC ppaer which is naturaly glossy and takes on a very shiny gloss just be being dried with hot air. You still can do it the old fashoned wayif you want.

As far as gettingthe effect in film, just wind it up damp and let it dry, as others have said you may pull the emuslion right off If you are not careful. This may or maynot create a visable effect on the prints. I would guess. Certainly I would guess it would probaly be hidden on a wet gate print, unless some of the emuslion did pull off.


Ferrotyping, being a physical surface effect on the film, will be more likely to show up in a specular optical system, such as optical printing. Yes, wet gate printing will "cover" it.
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#9 K Borowski

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 09:33 PM

MOST Glossy prints these days are made on RC ppaer which is naturaly glossy and takes on a very shiny gloss just be being dried with hot air. You still can do it the old fashoned wayif you want.


Just a joke. I don't do any ferrotyping of prints these days, although I DO still have the equipment to do so laying around somewhere. There was an RC and fiber dryer with hot metal plates as well as two ferrotyping tins in the high school yearbook darkroom. I occasionally still do fiber B&W prints though, for which ferrotyping still does a great job, when there's time. I guess it was the way to "RC-ize" fiber prints back before RC first came out around the end of WWII.

John, I'm curioius, how could perchloroethane hide "glossed" negatives or prints? I understand that it can fill in scratches, but wouldn't a larger, flatter area be beyond the scope of being filled in by perc?

Regards.

~Karl Borowski
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#10 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:08 PM

John, I'm curioius, how could perchloroethane hide "glossed" negatives or prints? I understand that it can fill in scratches, but wouldn't a larger, flatter area be beyond the scope of being filled in by perc?

Regards.

~Karl Borowski


The ferrotyped surface areas of the film would scatter light differently than those that were normal. Since it is a SURFACE effect on the film, a solvent with a matching refractive index would "cover" and hide the difference. The ferrotyping does not normally change the image contained within the emulsion layers.
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#11 Roberflowers

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 01:53 PM

where could I see examples of this effect being applied on film?
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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 02:56 PM

where could I see examples of this effect being applied on film?


I don't recall any examples where ferrotyping was deliberately used as a motion-picture technique. Ferrotyping would show up on screen as an irregular blotchy pattern, perhaps related to drying differences around the perforations or toward one side of the film.
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