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#1 Roberflowers

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 05:32 PM

Hi all,
My university is aquiring 2K scanners for us in the coming months. I'm curious to know what details are involved in the workflow. Is the negative basically scanned into files? Does this require enormous disk space? if so, is there a down conversion needed? Does this allow for DI work? I'm assuming this workflow can also lead to a film out. I have several projects coming up toward the end of summer and am curious about this workflow and how it can benefit the films. I know my school will go over their system of workflow, but I am interested in knowing the industry practices with this technology
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#2 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 06:37 PM

Hi,

> My university is aquiring 2K scanners for us in the coming months.

Lucky you.

> Is the negative basically scanned into files?

Yes. Usually DPX or Cineon format on the scan host, that is, the computer that controls the scanner. It may be connected to the scanner in a number of ways, but often there's a custom PCI card and cables to provide the physical interconnection. Usually you provide an EDL based on an offline cut made from the dailies transfers so the machine knows which frames to scan; this can be based either on keykode (ideal, but tricky to get to work with some devices) or timecode (easier, but can be less accurate).

> Does this require enormous disk space?

Yes. 10 bit log DPX is about 12 megs a frame.

> if so, is there a down conversion needed?

In what way? Most colour correction devices attempt to work at full resolution, although software solutions like Lustre and Baselight may allow you to work from low-res proxies. Making these proxies is a part of setting up the project, can take a while, and consumes large amounts of disk space (one quarter the space of the main files for a half res proxy). Usually you also end up downconverting when creating various other output files, for 2K filmout, HD and SD video outputs, which happens at the end of the process.

> Does this allow for DI work?

I'm describing how it's usually done.

> I'm assuming this workflow can also lead to a film out.

Yes.

> I have several projects coming up toward the end of summer and am curious about this workflow and how
> it can benefit the films.

It benefits the film by allowing you to work on it digitally. Usually with DI this means you will do digital colour correction, but other advantages include the ease with which you can use super-35 for a 2.39:1 finish, oddball things like 2 or 3 perf cameras (watch timecode/keykode issues there though) and perform a 16 to 35 blowup as part of the process, as well as colour correction options you can't (easily) do photochemically like hue and saturation changes or windowed areas.

Phil
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#3 Dan Goulder

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 08:40 PM

Hi all,
My university is aquiring 2K scanners for us in the coming months.

Which university is this? It takes quite an outlay to set up a facility with a complete 2K signal chain.
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#4 Michael Collier

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 09:14 PM

You said you can have the lab scan just the frames you need? I am planning on doing a spirit datacine transfer, would there be a fee taked on to selecting the right shots? My original plan included cutting the negatives and splicing together master reels, but of course to preserve the integrity of the negatives (and to help sell the film later) i dont want to cut actual scenes, so I would have to cut from head-slate to roll-out. Can I provide a premiere pro EDL and have the scanner automattically go through? What extra costs are involved in doing this. I assume that there will be more machine time, but what are there any hidden costs of doing this way as apposed to cutting master reels? I would put an emphasis on not splitting the negs, if both cost almost the same, I would deffinatley let the machine handle it. I am planning on having 40,000 foot reels, and would need about 100 minutes of that scanned.
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#5 Dan Goulder

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 09:27 PM

Can I provide a premiere pro EDL and have the scanner automattically go through? What extra costs are involved in doing this.

You need to be able to assemble an EDL that logs the actual film edge codes in order to transfer selects.
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#6 Michael Collier

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 11:51 PM

What if I manually set the timecodes to match the keycode numbers (they will be burned into the video)
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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:22 AM

Hi,

It ought to be possible to do it based on timecode too. If you are careful to ensure that timecode is correctly set and maintained through the offline process, Premiere is capable of exporting CMX-3600 format EDLs which should do the job. You may end up doing some hand cleanup of them as Premiere's CMX exporter traditionally includes an awful lot of junk.

Phil
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#8 Max Jacoby

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 04:37 AM

Real film scanners are incredibly expensive and it would seem a bit of an overkill to me to acquire one just for some student films. Are you sure it's not some old teleicne machine they will use to scan the rushes? Which university would this be for?
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 05:25 AM

Real film scanners are incredibly expensive and it would seem a bit of an overkill to me to acquire one just for some student films. Are you sure it's not some old teleicne machine they will use to scan the rushes? Which university would this be for?


Hi,

They are comming down in price, last year at IBC I saw a pin registered one at IBC for under 40,000 euro, it was slow about 1 frame a second. Another one looked cool costing $200,000 working @ 8 fps 2K.

Stephen
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#10 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 05:38 AM

Hi,

On the contrary, a slow scanner is often much cheaper than a decent telecine.

Phil
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#11 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 05:55 AM

Just wandering, do any of film scanners support multiple passes for more critical work?
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#12 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 10:33 AM

Just wandering, do any of film scanners support multiple passes for more critical work?


Hi,

Any pin registered scanner could support multi passes. I often do multipasses on a Spirit without major problems, sometimes some stabalization is required (softens the image) but it's done all the time

Stephen
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#13 Filip Plesha

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 10:57 AM

I can imagine that a pin registered film scanner would utilise such technique better than any other kind of scanner because it's so steady.

Though it must be a problem with a large number of frames, because the time it takes, right?
I assume it might work best on FX scenes where you only have a small number of frames.

But without the problem of sharpness (solved by state of the art motors and pin registration on movies scanners), multiple passes can almost compleatly separate grain from noise resulting in a nearly 100% noiseless image. Pretty neat thing
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#14 Chris Pritzlaff

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 05:38 PM

So the film is only scanned after the editing is completed right? Meaning that the film is telecined and then edited and then scanned using an EDL or something and after that the work is color-corrected with the filse and finally can be scanned out to film? Is this correct? Chapman University will be purchasing 2k film scanners and an Arri Laser for film out and I wanted to try to understand thie process.
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#15 David Cox

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 06:01 PM

So the film is only scanned after the editing is completed right? Meaning that the film is telecined and then edited and then scanned using an EDL or something and after that the work is color-corrected with the filse and finally can be scanned out to film? Is this correct? Chapman University will be purchasing 2k film scanners and an Arri Laser for film out and I wanted to try to understand thie process.


Yes - this is the normal workflow in a commercial environment. I say that because in a commercial environment cost is one of the biggest factors. Its possible that in an educational environment, you might work slightly differently.

The reason for the telecine transfer first is to get an inexpensive and fast version of the film to cut with. At this stage quality isn't an issue. After editing, only the necessary frames are scanned through the slower and thus more expensive film scanning process.

In your situation, if the use of your scanner is effectively "free" you could scan the whole film and create down-res'd files to cut with instead of using a telecine. This would be slower, need lots of disk space, and would wear out your scanner quicker, but would avoid the use of a telecine if that was an external cost to you.

David Cox
Baraka Post Production
www.baraka.co.uk
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