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shooting vision2 200t stock w/ 814 xls, help?


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#1 dustwaterwindfire

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 02:41 PM

I am shooting a music video for a friend and would like to shoot it on vision2 stock to be telecined later (I am using a canon 814xls). About 80 percent of it will be outdoors, will 200t be usable for those shots or should I get lower asa vision stock from a 3rd party other from kodak? The main reason i wanted to use the 200t is the cost for students from kodak is only 10.60 per cart and forde proccesing at 13.00 bucks a roll, totaling 23.00 a roll. a considerable savings from the cost at pro8 or spectra around 32-35. However I am willing to bite the bullet for the extra cost if it is too tricky to shoot 200t outdoors.

also a seperate question, could someone explain or point me to explanation and breakdown of cross processing, I know the basics but am still fuzzy about what stocks, and what process etc.. thanks for any help on either of these questions.
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#2 Erdwolf_TVL

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 03:17 PM

I am shooting a music video for a friend and would like to shoot it on vision2 stock to be telecined later (I am using a canon 814xls). About 80 percent of it will be outdoors, will 200t be usable for those shots or should I get lower asa vision stock from a 3rd party other from kodak? The main reason i wanted to use the 200t is the cost for students from kodak is only 10.60 per cart and forde proccesing at 13.00 bucks a roll, totaling 23.00 a roll. a considerable savings from the cost at pro8 or spectra around 32-35. However I am willing to bite the bullet for the extra cost if it is too tricky to shoot 200t outdoors.

also a seperate question, could someone explain or point me to explanation and breakdown of cross processing, I know the basics but am still fuzzy about what stocks, and what process etc.. thanks for any help on either of these questions.


Get a 4x ND filter for the camera. This works well, and is not that expensive. It really is the only option (other than shooting reversal) considering that 200 is the slowest speed film available for Super8 in Colour Neg from Kodak.

About Cross-Processing, there are many articles in the Film Stocks and Processing folder of this group. You will find more information than you could possibly need on this subject.
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#3 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 03:30 PM

Don't hesitate to shoot the 200T outdoors. An F4 or better (toward 5.6) will give sharper results with that camera, so the 200T will be a plus. If your f-stops are too high for your taste, use some ND filters to take it down.

Rick
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#4 A.Oliver

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 04:09 PM

Hi, my advice would be, buy 200t direct from kodak, use an ND filter, try not to let the cameras aperature go any wider than F4, best results i found with the 814xls are at f5.6,8,11. Avoid using the cameras variable shutter on the low lite angle. Good Shooting.
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#5 rcgrabbag

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 07:40 PM

Hi, my advice would be, buy 200t direct from kodak, use an ND filter, try not to let the cameras aperature go any wider than F4, best results i found with the 814xls are at f5.6,8,11. Avoid using the cameras variable shutter on the low lite angle. Good Shooting.


Can't you just crank up the exposure compensation dial on the 814 XLS to compensate instead of using a ND filter, or are you metering externally?
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#6 dustwaterwindfire

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 08:20 PM

thanks for the advice, great to hear. I will be using the internal meter for metering.

will the 200t being tungsten balanced factor into the look of the final quality of the film. will the color be off do I need to compensate for this?
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#7 Bon Sawyer

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 08:22 PM

Can't you just crank up the exposure compensation dial on the 814 XLS to compensate instead of using a ND filter...?

No, because all that will do is change the F-stop- it will not change the amount of light entering the lens.

Bon
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#8 Chris Burke

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 08:43 PM

thanks for the advice, great to hear. I will be using the internal meter for metering.

will the 200t being tungsten balanced factor into the look of the final quality of the film. will the color be off do I need to compensate for this?



A 85 filter must be used to get correct color when using tungsten balanced film outdoors. Most cameras have a built in filter that can be manually or automatically engaged. I am not sure about the camera that you are using. You may want to experiment with different filters to obtain the look you want. Keep in mind that use of a filter will change the amount of light that is needed to get the correct exposure. So if you do use an 85, your 200t now should be rated at 125 to get the proper exposure. It is a good rule of thumb to slightly overexpose smaller guaged film such as Super 8, so if you are shooting outdoors with an 85 filter, I would rate the film at 80 ASA, this will give you the appearance of finer grain. Having said all this, I do not know what you are going after for a look so I do recommend that you test. Get a roll or two and test, test, test, different filters, different exposures and so on, so that you know exactly what it takes to get what your want. Have fun and good luck with your shoot.

Chris
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#9 dustwaterwindfire

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 09:38 PM

I am assuming the cca switch on the camera is the 85 filter. the manual describes it as exactly what a 85 filter is supposed to do, so thanks for the heads up. so in to sum up, use a 4x ND filter and make sure the 85 filter is set to compensate for the tungsten balance. if i missed anything let me know.

thanks again for all the great direction.
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#10 Bon Sawyer

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 11:47 PM

I am assuming the cca switch on the camera is the 85 filter. the manual describes it as exactly what a 85 filter is supposed to do, so thanks for the heads up. so in to sum up, use a 4x ND filter and make sure the 85 filter is set to compensate for the tungsten balance.

Kodak's 200T and 500T cartridges disable the in-built 85 filter of most cameras. You'll need to use an external 85 (or 85B, etc.), or cut a 'filter notch' into each cartridge to allow you to use the camera's internal filter. The method for doing this can be found by searching the forums at www.filmshooting.com (and maybe here as well, but I can't remember offhand).

Bon
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#11 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 11:49 PM

I am shooting a music video for a friend and would like to shoot it on vision2 stock to be telecined later (I am using a canon 814xls). About 80 percent of it will be outdoors, will 200t be usable for those shots or should I get lower asa vision stock from a 3rd party other from kodak? The main reason i wanted to use the 200t is the cost for students from kodak is only 10.60 per cart and forde proccesing at 13.00 bucks a roll, totaling 23.00 a roll. a considerable savings from the cost at pro8 or spectra around 32-35. However I am willing to bite the bullet for the extra cost if it is too tricky to shoot 200t outdoors.

also a seperate question, could someone explain or point me to explanation and breakdown of cross processing, I know the basics but am still fuzzy about what stocks, and what process etc.. thanks for any help on either of these questions.


I would do at least one test roll ahead of time and I would consider at least one other stock just to change it up a bit. Either Ektachrome, Plus-X, Tri-X, Velvia would all be good choices, and I'd do a test with that cartridge as well.
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#12 rcgrabbag

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 10:52 AM

No, because all that will do is change the F-stop- it will not change the amount of light entering the lens.

Bon


I think my neurons aren't firing correctly. I'm not completely clear on operating these new films in these old cameras. Doesn't a change in F-stop change the amount of light entering the lens? I thought using an ND filter and the exposure compensation dial were somewhat interchangeable when using these new films?
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#13 Stuart Baker

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:21 AM

It appears I have no choice with my Super 8 camera but to shoot with outdoors balanced film with the CCA filter set to "Sun". I'm assuming this means that the Orange 85 is in place. But the Orange 85 is for daylight shooting with tungsten film. Is it ok to shoot outdoors with an Orange 85 if you're using outdoor balanced film? Or must it be negated with another filter?
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#14 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 05:04 AM

It appears I have no choice with my Super 8 camera but to shoot with outdoors balanced film with the CCA filter set to "Sun". I'm assuming this means that the Orange 85 is in place. But the Orange 85 is for daylight shooting with tungsten film. Is it ok to shoot outdoors with an Orange 85 if you're using outdoor balanced film? Or must it be negated with another filter?



If the film is already daylight balanced, then you would "switch" the filter to the light bulb setting, this in turn gives you an additional 2/3 of one f-stop sensitivity.
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#15 Sean McHenry

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:24 AM

The 814 XLs allows you to manually insert or remove the color filter independantly of the notching. Just push in on the top part just above the slider and it allows you to make the decision to use it or not, at least that's apparently how mine works. I have however forgotten if it inserts a CTB or CTO.

Sean
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#16 Stuart Baker

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 12:13 PM

I have the 814 Autozoom, and it forces you to use the *Sun* setting when shooting with daylight film. In other words, it locks out the ability to slide the filter to the *Bulb* setting. Oddly enough, the Kodak 500T stock forces the same situation, even though my undestanding is that this is a tungsten balanced film...

The manual says that with daylight film the "CCA" filter is automatically removed (*Sun* setting). But the manual also says that when using tungsten film, use the *Sun* setting when outdoors, enabling the "CCA" filter, or the *Bulb* setting when shooting with indoor light to remove the "CCA" Filter. All this woudl suggest to me that somehow the *Sun* setting with daylight film represents no filter, but when using Tungsten film the *Sun* setting represents the "CCA" filter in place. Presumably the "CCA" filter is an Orange 85 filter.

How can one setting represent two different things depending on the film being used? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks!
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#17 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:22 PM

I have the 814 Autozoom, and it forces you to use the *Sun* setting when shooting with daylight film. In other words, it locks out the ability to slide the filter to the *Bulb* setting. Oddly enough, the Kodak 500T stock forces the same situation, even though my undestanding is that this is a tungsten balanced film...

The manual says that with daylight film the "CCA" filter is automatically removed (*Sun* setting). But the manual also says that when using tungsten film, use the *Sun* setting when outdoors, enabling the "CCA" filter, or the *Bulb* setting when shooting with indoor light to remove the "CCA" Filter. All this woudl suggest to me that somehow the *Sun* setting with daylight film represents no filter, but when using Tungsten film the *Sun* setting represents the "CCA" filter in place. Presumably the "CCA" filter is an Orange 85 filter.

How can one setting represent two different things depending on the film being used? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks!



I think I figured this out. Just because a film is called "daylight" does not necessarily mean it is balanced for daytime shooting, an example of this would be kodachrome 40, which was considered a daylight film but was tungsten balanced.

So the 500T should be kept in the sunshine position, and this should activate the 85 filter when shooting outdoors, making the film a 320 ASA. I'm not sure if the Canon 814 Autozoom will read 500T as a 250 ASA when the filter is selected or will compensate an additional 2/3 of a stop because of the filter being selected. If the Canon 814 Autozoom camera does alter the ASA by an additional 2/3's of a stop, then it will read the 500T outdoors with 85 filter as a 160 ASA, resulting in an automatic overexposure of one full-stop, which probably is close to ideal when one considers that many shots can end up being underexposed via the autometer by one f-stop or more because of skyscape backlit situations and because the negative stock can easily withstand a one stop overexposure anyways.
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#18 Stuart Baker

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 01:27 PM

That all makes good sense, but what if I am shooting a true daylight balanced film. Do I still use the Sunshine setting? Do I shoot the daylight balanced film outdoors with the Orange 85 in place? Or do I shoot in the bulb position so the Orange 85 is removed. That seems rather counter intuitive. I don't think that would have been the camera manufacturer's intent...

Thanks, sb
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#19 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:34 PM

You need to put it in the bulb position (filter out) and screw on an external 85 or 85B with 17 & 18 stocks... The notch system will kick out the filter no matter what on the XLS.
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#20 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:54 PM

That all makes good sense, but what if I am shooting a true daylight balanced film. Do I still use the Sunshine setting? Do I shoot the daylight balanced film outdoors with the Orange 85 in place? Or do I shoot in the bulb position so the Orange 85 is removed. That seems rather counter intuitive. I don't think that would have been the camera manufacturer's intent...

Thanks, sb


From the beginning of the manufacture of Super-8 cameras the film that one put in was always tungsten based. Kodachrome 40 and Kodachrome II were both tungsten based films, as was Ektachrome. Therefore it was actually quite easy, shoot outdoors, put the filter switch selection to the sun icon, when indoors put the filter switch selection to the light bulb icon.

My assumption for newer filmstocks that are now offered is for films that are daylight balanced, one would leave the filter switch to the light bulb option at all times as the light bulb icon basically equals no filter at all.
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