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#1 Dajan Bozanic

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 02:21 AM

Well I've been browsing the forums for about two days now and can i just say that I am terrified of the amount of information and knowledge that is to be found here. There's so much to learn and I feel like a grain of sand burried 10 kilometers beneath the Indian ocean seabed!

But, I guess I'm here coz i want to learn and have a genuine passion for filmmaking. I just graduated from university with a degree in Film & Television (which is funny because we were never exposed to film formats AT ALL) and I am hoping to shoot a short film this year on 16mm. The only real necessity is for the camera to have crystal sync capabilities....

so basically.....what good, cheap cameras can I pick up that would do me good for a first time shoot that I can have fun with and learn at the same time?....lets say my budget for the camera is about $4000...(US$3000)

Any input would be much appreciated...
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#2 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 04:01 AM

Hey Dejane (vozdra mate),

where did you graduate from? It fully doesnt surprise me that you weren't exposed to any film stuff at your collage, since i went through the same thing when i graduated... and i hear almost every UNI in AU is the same (except few);

anyways, the question you were asking was about 16mm camera. You probably dont need to buy a camera... thats straight up. You dont need it. You should look into renting one for the project, talk to your rental housings and see what deal you can score to use it for the amount of time you needed it... in that case you can rent a beautiful camera (an Sr3 would be my choice - or a 16s SR2 if budget is a bit less - some others would advise on getting Aaton... but for unknown reason i just prefer Arri, perhaps its a comfort thing of knowing it a bit better) and shoot your flick.

This is good for couple of reasons. First of you dont get stuck with an old bomb that doesnt work from eBay that is going to cost you lots to ship and even more to fix and clean and lub n the rest (plus you'd probably be stuck tryign to find someone to do all that for you for cheap) but more importantly you get to work on a camera that is used in the industry and you get to learn it a bit... get it? then use the rest of your money on lights and other stuff...

If however you still wanted to mock about with a 16mm camera, id recommend you buy one from me :) Yeha, i aint kidding either. My 16mm BL is a beast, that wont let anyone down. It comes with sync controller, 4 mags, swan viewfinder, and before anyone bags it - it has multiple BLIMP housings! Thats right, i own one for the zoom lens (10-100 Zeiss T3.3) one for all your primes (3 prime lenses included 10mm, 16mm, 35mm) and one for 75mm;

Its a heavy and uncomfortable camera... a struggle to put on steadicam - although i do have a VIDEO TAP that gets attached onto the viewfinder... It wont be easy but you will get to learn all that you need to know about 16mm film with it...and a bit more (like how to load its magazine :D)

Ill throw in couple of other things if you are really interested, so to make it ready to shoot from the box... (e.g. dark bag, cores, filters, etc etc.)
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#3 Dajan Bozanic

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 04:32 AM

thanks for the reply, I sent you a pm.

Filmcamerakit.com is selling a Bolex H-16 EBM with a 16-100mm f1.9 POE lens
for around US 3k, and there's one on ebay for the same price but has been converted to s16, but doesnt have any lenses....

which one is the better deal??
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#4 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 07:12 AM

pm answered/
hey mate make sure you know what mount the camera has and what that means in regards to getting other lenses? weather it is something you can add lenses to later and wheather they are GOOD lenses... if you are buying something for $4k you want to be able to use best of lenses on it too :D my 2cents

of course super 16mm is an advantage! It gives you more of a frame! As long as the conversion is proper... read up about that on this forum, there are heaps of topics on this and the rest of the stuff you may need to know - just look for once where people are asking about buying 16mm cameras.

I'd recommend you get ST instead, learn the basis of 16mm shooting and then think about renting SR3s untill maybe one day you have enough work lined up it pays to buy an Arri Sr2 super 16mm :D

Cheers,
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#5 Tim Carroll

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 08:15 AM

thanks for the reply, I sent you a pm.

Filmcamerakit.com is selling a Bolex H-16 EBM with a 16-100mm f1.9 POE lens
for around US 3k, and there's one on ebay for the same price but has been converted to s16, but doesnt have any lenses....

which one is the better deal??


Just my personal opinion, and having owned one, I would not get a Bolex EBM unless you could pick one up for super cheap and only wanted to use it for playing around with. It is not a sound sync camera because it is extremely noisy, and the electronics on the one I had were all screwed up, and the gears can develop enough backlash that you can't crystal sync them without getting shutter bounce, which will ruin all of your footage. There are folks on this forum who swear by Bolex and think they are great. I am not one of them.

If you get a refurbished Bolex EBM from the factory in Switzerland you probably won't have the electronics problem and the gear backlash should be good for a while, but what it the point. You end up with a noisy camera that uses special lenses that are not compatible with any other camera you may eventually buy.

Get an Arri ST with the Bayonet mount and all the bayonet mount lenses you get for it can move up with you to your Arriflex 16SR or SRII or SR3 (with a PL adapter). The Arri ST will be as quiet as the Bolex (quieter if you have a good tech service it for you) but it is still an MOS camera unless you blimp it. But it is easy to crystal sync with a Tobin motor for music videos, and if you are patient and creative, you can shoot crystal sync dialog using lavaliere mics on the talent and noise reduction software in post.

For your $4000 you can also look at Eclair NPR's or ACL's or possibly an Aaton LRT7 or Cinema Products 16R, or an Arriflex 16BL like Lav is selling. All these cameras will be quiet enough to shoot crystal sync dialog.

Again, it is only my opinion, but I certainly would not waste $4000 on a Bolex EBM, I don't care if it is Super 16. As demonstrated by the clips below, you can shoot 16:9 with a regular 16 mm camera and it will look fine if you use slower film stocks. The clips below were shot on Kodak Vision2 200T.

Regular 16mm cropped 16:9

Posted Image

-Tim
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#6 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:31 AM

hey there,

You could have said it all better Tim. I am 100% behind you on that Bolex stuff too... but anyways, i better stop before we get stuck in a argumentative discussion with someone who prefers it over arri's;

And of course you can crop the standard 16mm to super 16mm look, just keep it in mind when shooting and do it in telecine and not in your off line edit suit... by zooming in... or you could just add bars to it like i did on number of projects, which i was a fan of when i was younger :unsure: Most of my old reel which is on my site (real outdated) is shot on ST and SR2 (standard) with bars put over it; www.lavproductions.com ("about us" - crap export though)

That?s a great link Tim. It should definitely help Dajan see the look of some lenses, although personally i am not particularly keen on 12-120mm Angenieux...

take it easy,
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#7 Tim Carroll

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:02 AM

It should definitely help Dajan see the look of some lenses, although personally i am not particularly keen on 12-120mm Angenieux...


Lav,

The Angenieux 12-120 is a much maligned lens. Probably because the consistency from the factory was pretty much none existent. I happen to get a nice one, and Paul Duclos of Duclos Lenses in LA set it up for me. Personally, I prefer the Cooke Kinetal primes, but that Angenieux doesn't do bad work. I have seen others though that were soft as cotton.

-Tim
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#8 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:43 AM

Hi Tim, yeah i wasnt speaking about the images you linked to when i made that comment, i was merely speaking from my personal experience. The Angenieux 12-120 zoom lens i worked with on one project, whilst in great cosmetic condition, produced exactly what you said B grade images. The sharpness just wasnt there, when comparing to some of the other lenses from that same project. I wouldn't knock them all down though, i even offered to buy an Angenieux the other day for myself, just to add to the collection really :D

what are you shooting with these days?

Hey Dajan, just googling Perth and film camera in the same sentance i got these guys http://www.westcoastfilms.com/ maybe try and contact them, tell them you would love some film experience, they may take you along to a shoot or tell that to their clients whome they rent gear to, who can take you along for a TVC shoot... it would be good experience!

Cheers,
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#9 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:58 AM

check it out Tim, a bit too much no?
http://cgi.ebay.com....1QQcmdZViewItem
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#10 Tim Carroll

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 11:12 AM

check it out Tim, a bit too much no?
http://cgi.ebay.com....1QQcmdZViewItem


Lav,

I saw that and it is interesting. I sent the seller a question a few days ago about that lens and he has not responded.

Here's my take on it. I have that same lens in B-mount, not converted to Super 16. I had the lens completely brought back to spec by Paul Duclos of Duclos Lenses in LA and it makes fantastic images. But, and this is a big BUT, depending on who services the lens and who did the Super 16 conversion, the images it produces may be great or they may not be. What I asked him is both of those questions and as I mentioned, he has not responded.

There are different Super 16 conversions made for the Zeiss 10-100 T2 Mk1 lens (which that one is). All of them add extra glass to the back of the lens. Some of the conversions were better than others, as in, the better conversions degrade the image slightly, the worse conversions degrade the image considerably. So it depends on what conversion the lens has and who did it.

The other thing with that particular lens is that it is currently in Aaton mount. Now if you have an LTR or XTR Aaton and it still has the original Aaton mount, you are in business. But if you have a PL mount on your camera, to have a decent PL mount put on that lens could run between $500 and $750.

So alot of things to consider. The Zeiss 10-100 T2 Mk1 lens is a great lens. Visual Products here in the States is selling them for $4900. Naturally those are brought back to factory specs. So it is still a great piece of glass if serviced properly and if a good conversion was added to it.

-Tim
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#11 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 11:25 AM

wow you were onto it already, thats pretty good!
Mate, I reckon I need to talk to you about scouting the field for an SR2 when i become ready to buy it :D
I just got to stop doing these weddings and corporates... roll some film again...

Thanks Tim

PS Dajan I saw this BL here on eBay whilst browsing... gives you an idea of what they are like;
http://cgi.ebay.com......AMEWA:IT&rd=1
except of course, mine has every single thing a BL can have, every accessory;
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#12 Tim Carroll

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 07:06 PM

Lav,

That lens sold, somebody in Germany bought it for the "Buy-It-Now" price of $2499. So I guess someone thought it was a good deal. :)

-Tim
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#13 Dajan Bozanic

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:41 PM

hey thanx for all the help guys, didnt expect such a response. I guess I am a bit eager to just jump in head first and spend money when really i dont know what I'm doing. I think you guys are right about the EBM thing, I dont want a screwy camera. Lav, thanx for the BL link on ebay, I was actually looking at the same one yesterday thinking its the same price as yours, but with less accesories! And west coast film services.....thats like 1km away from my house!! I swear I live under a rock. Will check it out.

I think I'll hold off buying a camera right away until I do some more research.
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#14 Tim Carroll

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 09:56 PM

I think I'll hold off buying a camera right away until I do some more research.


Seems like a wise choice.

Good Luck,
-Tim
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#15 Dajan Bozanic

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:10 PM

thanx tim for the link. I dont NEED a super 16, just wishful thinking. I just wanna learn and play around with a decent camera, and make movies...

thanx again i will be asking a million more questions soon
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#16 Lav Bodnaruk

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 10:51 PM

Yo Yo, Dajan, wise choice man, holding off on buying a camera is very smart, learn the ropes first... seriously read up on the ST and no one better to talk to about it then Tim :)

Remember BL is a sync camera, one that you can record sound with simultaniously, but not before you blimp all your lenses and even chuck a barney onto mags... no big deal of course, but as apposed to an SR it limits your using of follow focuses and similar... Do you know who Christopher Nolan is? Have you seen his "Following" (1998) that was shot completely on BL :)

Read more about BL here - no one sets out all that is good and all that is bad about it then CinemaTechic;

http://www.cinematec.../arri_16bl.html --> brows it hit Products and read more;
this should be a definite read for you: http://www.cinematec...rces/index.html on the bottom of that page it tells you few advices! make sure you read that!

You asked me about the 24fps and 25fps in your PM, seriously have a bit of a look around the site for that answer in more depth. I have shot a feature film trailer just now, not the entire film - not yet anyways :D and we shot on 25fps (ARRI 3 and BL3). There are some productions stills on http://www.lavproductions.com - film projects/stills;
We had a huge debate before hand on what we should shoot because we knew our finish format would be for investors, hence the TV and not theatre...

The problem of course wasnt the sound, you can adjust all your sound recording machines to do both - i even have a SYNC sound measuring device which Mr Don Brown made for me (legend!) that you put in front of the camera whilst it runs and view it through the viewfinder - the led lights flick according to what speed it is going. I currently borrowed it to Panavision ... why am i talking of this? dam i get easily sidetracked... ammm yeah, 24 or 25 --> here
http://www.cinematog...topic=11481&hl=
"no_soft_shots" is my DOP on the trailer, his name is Paul Seipel, hopefully his question and answers help you out. Your main concern should be the light flicker and frequency... the 24fps gives you less of a window to move around in 50Hz country, our country;

Cheers,

Edited by lav, 19 May 2006 - 10:55 PM.

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#17 Dajan Bozanic

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 11:06 PM

ok thanx i will get on those links. Im glad i dont have a day job :blink:
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#18 Bon Sawyer

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 12:10 AM

Hey Dajan,

Cool to see another Perth guy around here. :) I think there's another one or two floating about, but I don't recall seeing any posts from them recently.

Which Uni did you go to?

Bon
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#19 Dajan Bozanic

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 12:25 AM

Hey Dajan,

Cool to see another Perth guy around here. :) I think there's another one or two floating about, but I don't recall seeing any posts from them recently.

Which Uni did you go to?

Bon


ahh yes, the wild west is not a great place to find filmmakers. The good thing about living here is, because of the lack of industry here, pretty much everyone is willing to work for free :D

I went to Edith Cowan University (Mt Lawley campus)

The course itself wasnt bad coz we learned all the basics of fillmaking even if the majority of that was just theory, and my lecturers were pretty cool, but i had to really push to use the Beaulieu R16 beast they had locked up in the basement for ten thousand years because they only taught miniDV stuff. So I used the camera for my last project without any experience and spent a shitload of money even though I shot reversal and finished with one light work print. it was a learning curve. I would love to post some of my reel up here for some harsh constructive critisism but dont really know how...
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#20 Bon Sawyer

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 01:06 AM

Interesting... I went to a screening of ECU 3rd-year projects at Luna Leederville a few months ago. I remember a black-and-white film set in Chicago- was that yours?

Yeah, there seems to be minimal emphasis on the use of actual film within the WA schools. I think that's largely due to Perth's (apparently deliberate) focus on documentary and television. I recently finished an Advanced Diploma course at FTI, which was also video-only. I gather that Central TAFE, Curtin and Murdoch do involve 16mm in some of their courses, however. (Apparently Murdoch invested in an Arri SR2 quite recently.)

Bon

P.S. I might be able to give you some tips on putting your reel up, as well as provide some webspace for it if you need it. PM me if you're interested.

Edited by Bon Sawyer, 20 May 2006 - 01:10 AM.

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