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200t/7217 overexposure


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#1 Allyn Laing

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 08:04 PM

I'm looking to shoot the kodak 200t/7217 at a 2 - 3 stop overexposure outdoors corected for daylight, can anyone give me some pointers or tips? Does the stock perform well outdoors and what is the grain like? Do the colours desaturate?

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#2 Kevin Zanit

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 10:40 PM

I haven't overexposed the stock by that much on purpose (why are you overexposing by that much?), but I have found it to be an excellent stock.

It is very comparable to 18' in latitude. I have overexposed lamps and such by as much as 6 stops and still had some detail in the highlights. Your best bet would be to test.

As far as grain, I have not shot it in 16, but in 35 it was extremely fine grained. I remember on one thing they did a 60% zoom (granted for a finish in SD) and the grain was still pretty decent.

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#3 John Mastrogiacomo

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 10:48 PM

I'm looking to shoot the kodak 200t/7217 at a 2 - 3 stop overexposure outdoors corected for daylight, can anyone give me some pointers or tips? Does the stock perform well outdoors and what is the grain like? Do the colours desaturate?

warm ones
Allyn



The grain is pretty much non-existant on 7217 (transferred on a Spirit 2K to Digi-Beta on an SD monitor) :D
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#4 Dan Goulder

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 11:00 PM

I'm looking to shoot the kodak 200t/7217 at a 2 - 3 stop overexposure outdoors corected for daylight, can anyone give me some pointers or tips? Does the stock perform well outdoors and what is the grain like? Do the colours desaturate?

warm ones
Allyn

What look are you trying to achieve? Shooting 3 stops over in daylight is going to make everything look pretty washed out. Unless that's the look your after, I wouldn't recommend it.

Edited by dgoulder, 01 June 2006 - 11:01 PM.

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#5 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 June 2006 - 10:06 PM

What look are you trying to achieve? Shooting 3 stops over in daylight is going to make everything look pretty washed out. Unless that's the look your after, I wouldn't recommend it.


7217 has the latitude to hold hightlight detail, even with 2 to 3 stops of overexposure, so I don't expect highlights to be "washed out". However, the very dense negative may require a setup change for printing, or show more electronic noise in a telecine transfer.
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#6 Dan Goulder

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Posted 03 June 2006 - 12:15 AM

7217 has the latitude to hold hightlight detail, even with 2 to 3 stops of overexposure, so I don't expect highlights to be "washed out". However, the very dense negative may require a setup change for printing, or show more electronic noise in a telecine transfer.

If someone wants to shoot 3 stops over, I think it's still a good idea to question his motive on the chance that he might possibly be taking a misguided approach in relation to whatever look he's actually trying to achieve. Having used 5217, I've no doubt that the stock can handle the elevated exposure. However, since the poster was asking about grain level, I couldn't help but wonder if that was possibly his primary motivation for wanting to shoot 3 stops over(to minimize the grain). If that is in fact the case, I would still recommend against it. 5212 might be a better choice.
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 03 June 2006 - 02:45 AM

If all he wants is grain reduction, he should use a slower-speed stock like '12 or '01.

Overexposing doesn't really make a stock less grainy, the largest grains are always there, determined by the speed of the stock. What overexposure does is expose the smaller, slower grains inbetween the larger ones, filling in the gaps and tightening up the grain structure, which gives the impression of lower graininess. But any more than one-stop overexposure and you'd be better off just using the next speed slower stock, unless you want to lower contrast by overexposing one-stop and then pull-processing by one stop.

If this is for printing, then having a denser negative allows you to print at higher numbers and get better blacks, but again, more than one-stop overexposure is not really necessary. Any more and some of your colors may be hitting the top of the printer light scale, making it harder to balance the colors. And with extreme overexposure, your highlights lose detail and get flat-looking.

The only reason for two or more stops of overexposure is for creating a unique look.
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#8 Allyn Laing

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 09:39 PM

The only reason for two or more stops of overexposure is for creating a unique look.



What stocks would you recomend pulling and or pushing? Say to tighten the grain? faster speed stocks?
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#9 Steve Wallace

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Posted 14 June 2006 - 11:30 PM

What stocks would you recomend pulling and or pushing? Say to tighten the grain? faster speed stocks?

I wouldn't recommend pushing or pulling, when there is a better stock to achieve the same goal.

If you are shooting '17 at 3 stop over, you are rating it at something like 25ASA. To tighten grain, you want to use slower stocks. If you like the V2 family, use '01 or '12 (as David mentioned above). If you want it a little punchier go for '45 (if you can still get it?). With these, you will have a tighter grain structure, with normal color rendition.

Unless you want a washed out look (like dgoulder said), I would recommend against the 3 stop over exposure.
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#10 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 02:59 AM

Don't get too clever -- if you want less grain, use a slower-speed filmstock.
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#11 Sam Wells

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 08:29 AM

I got some very nice results pushing 7274 one (shooting in daylight w/85) not compensating for the push, and slamming it ~ one stop over on top of that.

BUT two caveats: - although daily prints looked amazingly good (at first screening I thought I was looking at '45 I'd shot) - these prints were way up in the 30's on Colorlab's 1-40 scale - IOW it's nearly throwing away the nice highlight headroom you can get & which is one of the dividends of modern ECN...

Secondly, what have I really done here - if I'm exposing a 200 speed (well 125 with the filter) stock at like 64 or 80, why not do it the easy way and just shoot the 7245 I was shooting lots of at the time (and pushing one stop to an EI of ~ 80) - same difference in that resect and more room to move..

Moreover, although it still had a look and texture distinct from '45 in prints, since then I've done HD transfers of this material and the '45 is simply tighter and the '74 isn't doing anything much I can't get by other i.e. electronic / Davinci tricks means.....

I haven't tried this yet with Vision 2 equivalents...

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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 15 June 2006 - 08:39 AM

Generally, you will get the best results for a normal "look" by using a stock near it's rated exposure index and using a normal process. Since a push or pull process normally costs more, it is more economical to use a faster film than to underexpose and push a slower one. Likewise, if you want finer grain, use a slower film if you have the light.

Unless you are trying for a different "look", it's usually best to KISS (Keep it simple s.....), or as David says, "Don't get too clever".
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