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Rank Cinetel mark III


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#1 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 04 June 2006 - 08:00 PM

Has anyone ever used the Mark 3 and and what are the +s and -s also is beta SP a viable capture media or does it really have to go to an HD deck? Thanks
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 04:19 AM

Has anyone ever used the Mark 3 and and what are the +s and -s also is beta SP a viable capture media or does it really have to go to an HD deck? Thanks


Hi,

An upgraded MK 3 in perfect condition with a Pogle or DaVinci can produce beautiful pictures. Unfortunately maintanance costs are very high, any facility still using a MK 3 will usually be the type that wants to save money!

A MK 3 can have a 4:2:2 SD output, many do not. Beta SP is a viable capture medium for a MK 3 IMHO.

I see from other posts you are buying a processing machine so the Rank is for you to buy! If you do, NEVER turn off the power to the telecine! When you turn the power on there is a good chance of the power supply go bang! The telecine will need to be set up with the new power supply, a long and boring job. When not in use turn the beam curent down to the tube. If you transfer with a reduced beam current you will add noise to the picture!

I think you will have more fun with processing machine than with a MK 3!

Stephen

Edited by Stephen Williams, 05 June 2006 - 04:30 AM.

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#3 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 11:36 AM

Make sure the tube is fairly new and hasn't been run to much - it creates unsharp, aliased images. A new tube is quite expensive, but not prohibitively so. If you can get the Y-front upgrade even better.

HD is not an option an Mark III's - they're strictly SD.

Mark III's are a bit like dogs - all individuals. They have to be pampered with a bit. Typical British 70-80's engineering - can be hit and miss.
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 11:43 AM

Make sure the tube is fairly new and hasn't been run to much -


Budget for a new tube each year too!

Stephen
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#5 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 11:02 PM

Hi,

An upgraded MK 3 in perfect condition with a Pogle or DaVinci can produce beautiful pictures. Unfortunately maintanance costs are very high, any facility still using a MK 3 will usually be the type that wants to save money!

A MK 3 can have a 4:2:2 SD output, many do not. Beta SP is a viable capture medium for a MK 3 IMHO.

I see from other posts you are buying a processing machine so the Rank is for you to buy! If you do, NEVER turn off the power to the telecine! When you turn the power on there is a good chance of the power supply go bang! The telecine will need to be set up with the new power supply, a long and boring job. When not in use turn the beam curent down to the tube. If you transfer with a reduced beam current you will add noise to the picture!

I think you will have more fun with processing machine than with a MK 3!

Stephen


Ya, that's exactly what I planned to do, buy it and use it for my projects maybe do a little telecine on the side for rushes ect. I have no doubt there will be a hugh learning curve on this equipment but If I take the time to learn it and couple it with the other pieces I have now, it will make me virtually independent. That would only leave a coding machine, an optical printer and the machine to make the opitical soundtracks (I forget what it's called) oh yeah and the machine to print film from video (I don't know what that's called) however that particular machine my be a wee bit out of my price range :) . The Cintel I was looking at said it had a 4:4:4 pulldown on the front panel, is this something different? I've never seen a 4:4:4 in SD before. Even DVCpro50 is a 4:2:2 pulldown. If it's true mark 3's are strictly SD, I'm not sure what that marking on the Cintel was reffering to. Just so I know what I'm getting into, what does a tube go for and how much should a fair to good condition Cintel mark 3 go for? Thanks-The Captain B)
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 09:58 AM

Ya, that's exactly what I planned to do, buy it and use it for my projects maybe do a little telecine on the side for rushes ect. I have no doubt there will be a hugh learning curve on this equipment but If I take the time to learn it and couple it with the other pieces I have now, it will make me virtually independent. That would only leave a coding machine, an optical printer and the machine to make the opitical soundtracks (I forget what it's called) oh yeah and the machine to print film from video (I don't know what that's called) however that particular machine my be a wee bit out of my price range :) . The Cintel I was looking at said it had a 4:4:4 pulldown on the front panel, is this something different? I've never seen a 4:4:4 in SD before. Even DVCpro50 is a 4:2:2 pulldown. If it's true mark 3's are strictly SD, I'm not sure what that marking on the Cintel was reffering to. Just so I know what I'm getting into, what does a tube go for and how much should a fair to good condition Cintel mark 3 go for? Thanks-The Captain B)


Hi,

Was the 4:4:4 on a 3rd party controller?
I think 4:4:4 is possible in SD with 2 SDI connectoins but rare.
A new tube and service will run $5-10,000 I think.

I think you are going to regret owning a MK3, just my 2c.

Stephen
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#7 Andy Sparaco SOC

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 12:51 PM

I think you are going to regret owning a MK3, just my 2c.

Stephen


That will prove to be an understatement! You are absolutely nuts to consider this. I shot the first tests of 7247 and did the first film to tape Xfer in the USA in 1976. (The color corrector was a Radio Shack TRS-80 with three joy sticks -gamma/chroma and gain) It was a contraption then and it only got worse as updates where stapped on to it any way possible.
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#8 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 02:16 PM

See, I heard something similar from the guy I got my proccessor from. He owned a Cintel and said it was a nightmare. The "problem" I have is this one is going REALLY cheap. I'm wieghing the aggrivation vs. cost factors. What would be a viable alternative to a Rank Cintel? As I mentioned before, this will be primarily used for my own projects, so I SHOUDN'T have to buy a tube every year and maintanence should be minimal simply because there won't be that many hours put on the equipment, I may do some telecine for other people just to offset costs. I certainly don't want to make telecine transfers my career. Maybe it's also a questioon of getting use to one machine's quirks. As Adam said, they're all individuals, so maybe if you work with one machine for a while you'll figure it out. I don't know. :( I would hope I can overcome the problems I will save a tremendous amount of money in transfer fees if I can get somewhat adept at using it, that is assuming I right about maintanence and it isn't going to cost an arm and a leg to keep it running.
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#9 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 02:34 PM

At some point, you will have to choose between being a filmmaker or a lab owner. :rolleyes:

Running a good ECN-2 process and an old Mark III is more than a full time job. With small volumes, don't expect that you will save money over what you would pay with established labs and transfer facilities.

IMHO, you are "biting off more than you can chew".
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#10 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 02:54 PM

You may be right. I'll just wait and see how cheap I can get it. If it goes for a grand or 2 I'll probably buy it. At that price, if it just sits there most of the time, it's not that big of a deal. If if it goes any higher I'll probably just blow it off. I only buy equipmnet if I know I can get my money back out of it. Being able to transfer film to video would be a nice thing to have but not essental. So we'll see what happens.
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#11 Andy Sparaco SOC

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 03:05 PM

You may be right. I'll just wait and see how cheap I can get it. If it goes for a grand or 2 I'll probably buy it. At that price, if it just sits there most of the time, it's not that big of a deal. If if it goes any higher I'll probably just blow it off. I only buy equipmnet if I know I can get my money back out of it. Being able to transfer film to video would be a nice thing to have but not essental. So we'll see what happens.


It will not sit there most of the time -it will sit there all of the time! You will never get it to work. There is no one to repair it, calibrate it, tweek it. The established (and remaining labs) offer fabulous service at great rates, will pursue you for the business. Take the one or two grand buy some film and shoot it, process and xfer. You will benefit more.

Just the dirt problems alone will put you out of business. The film cleaning machines are dangerous and use a highly volitale solution which is explosive
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#12 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 03:47 PM

It will not sit there most of the time -it will sit there all of the time! You will never get it to work. There is no one to repair it, calibrate it, tweek it. The established (and remaining labs) offer fabulous service at great rates, will pursue you for the business. Take the one or two grand buy some film and shoot it, process and xfer. You will benefit more.

Just the dirt problems alone will put you out of business. The film cleaning machines are dangerous and use a highly volitale solution which is explosive



Capt,

It may work if installed by a pro until you power it down, or have a power cut! I don't think you will save any money by buying a Mk III and I am not the only one!

Stephen
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#13 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 06:56 PM

I think I've been convinced here. Ah well, I didn't have the money to buy right this minute anyway. Thanks for the advise guys, you may have just saved me a lot of aggrivation after wasteing a lot of cash ! :)
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#14 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 12:00 AM

Ya, that's exactly what I planned to do, buy it and use it for my projects maybe do a little telecine on the side for rushes ect. I have no doubt there will be a hugh learning curve on this equipment but If I take the time to learn it and couple it with the other pieces I have now, it will make me virtually independent. That would only leave a coding machine, an optical printer and the machine to make the opitical soundtracks (I forget what it's called) oh yeah and the machine to print film from video (I don't know what that's called) however that particular machine my be a wee bit out of my price range :) . The Cintel I was looking at said it had a 4:4:4 pulldown on the front panel, is this something different? I've never seen a 4:4:4 in SD before. Even DVCpro50 is a 4:2:2 pulldown. If it's true mark 3's are strictly SD, I'm not sure what that marking on the Cintel was reffering to. Just so I know what I'm getting into, what does a tube go for and how much should a fair to good condition Cintel mark 3 go for? Thanks-The Captain B)


There are hungry, very high quality labs and rank cintel transfer services such as Spectra Film and Video that have already invented the high quality wheel you hope to reinvent on a shoestring budget. At some point, you are either are a film maker or a post house. Getting the lab is intriguing, but also going for the transfer facility seems to me to be a bit much. Unless you have a total of at least 1/2 million that you can spend without crying, I'd seriously look at teaming up with an existing lab/transfer company.

By the time you've laid down 200K minimum for all of this stuff (which could easily balloon to 1/2 million or more), isn't it just as possible that you could have been treated like a king in an existing lab/transfer facility for 50K to a 100K and have a 100K left over for higher quality film shoots?

Isn't it possible that the money you spend setting up your lab AND transfer system is money that you will drain away from your movie? Is the special effects guy you desperately need for one day really going to care that you can only pay them a hundred bucks because you plopped down a ton of money on a rank cintel that suddenly needed all new boards plus additional boards that weren't even in the system, etc....

If you have enough capital, perhaps you should become an investor that agrees to put 2 to 3K a month into an existing rank cintel transfer company in exchange for full time rank use every weekend. This could effectively equal 50 bucks an hour to have weekly access to an operational, even high quality rank room. Too many people creating their own mini-studio sometimes weakens the existing infrastructure of an already available service. If you say that 2 to 3K a month is risky beause sometimes you may be shooting some weeekends, well, wouldn't it be a shame if your production grinds to a halt because you have to take a 500 dollar film transfer job (not profit, just the amount of the transfer job) coming in the door to help pay the overhead for that week?

Also, the issue of SD versus HD versus 10 bit versus straight to video transfers is a serious issue to contend with. Better to go with what already exists because you could switch streams after one project rather than be forced to use the same system over and over because you spent a lot of money in hardware.

If you have available capital, you could really get the attention of a post house that does not yet own a digibeta deck. You purchase the digi-beta deck, install it in their facility, you still own the deck, but in exchange for letting them use it as needed, you get rank cintel services for $50-75 bucks an hour. If I were a rank house that didn't have a digibeta deck or needed another one, I would be all over that deal.

It's still a killer deal for you, because whenever the deal ends you still own the digibeta deck, yet you got rank cintel services for 50-75 bucks an hour! It might be worth your time, if you actually have spending capital available, to check out a young, but vastly experienced company like Spectra Film and Video.
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#15 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 02:22 AM

I shot a 15-day feature with a $100,000 budget for someone who spent another $100,000 on buying a Sony F900 HDCAM -- on the idea that he could shoot as many features as he wanted, whenever he wanted. But that was four years ago and he still hasn't shot another feature on the camera, let alone shot much else beyond our 15-day shoot. And he probably could have rented an F900 for those 15-days for about $5000, and thus had another $95,000 to add to his production budget.

So the lesson I learned, whether he did or not, was that owning the means of production doesn't necessarily make you more productive.
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#16 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 03:22 AM

Sage words my friend, Sage words :D
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#17 Hal Smith

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 03:56 AM

Sage words my friend, Sage words :D

I see from other posts you are buying a processing machine so the Rank is for you to buy! If you do, NEVER turn off the power to the telecine! When you turn the power on there is a good chance of the power supply go bang! The telecine will need to be set up with the new power supply, a long and boring job.
Stephen


I've got quite a bit of experience with British engineered power supplies from this era on Marconi MKVII cameras. If they had some of the same strange ideas about design on the Rank MKIII's then this is indeed good advice. Channel 9 in Chicago had a slew of MKVII's in their newsroom and never turned them off for the same reason, the power supplies would go bang! on a restart. I successfully re-engineered my two camera power supplies and got rid of the worst problems.

If you buy a Rank, I might be able to help with power supply problems, be sure to get all the manuals and schematics. PM me and we'll chat further.
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#18 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 04:19 AM

I shot the first tests of 7247 and did the first film to tape Xfer in the USA in 1976. (The color corrector was a Radio Shack TRS-80 with three joy sticks -gamma/chroma and gain) It was a contraption then and it only got worse as updates where stapped on to it any way possible.


But that doesn't necessarily relate to Mark III's that have been properly serviced, they do put out a nice picture if the the machine is being properly maintained, however if your point is that getting a mark III to that stage of operation might be deceptively expensive, that I would agree with.
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#19 Stephen Williams

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 04:38 AM

I've got quite a bit of experience with British engineered power supplies from this era on Marconi MKVII cameras. If they had some of the same strange ideas about design on the Rank MKIII's then this is indeed good advice.


Hal,

I think the Rank is more reliable than the Marconi MKVII's but it's close!

I remember Rank asked a London facilities owner what he dreamed about for a new telecine. 'Made by Sony' was the reply!

Stephen
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#20 Hal Smith

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 04:46 AM

Hal,

I think the Rank is more reliable than the Marconi MKVII's but it's close!

Stephen

You and I are probably the only two individuals on the Forum who truly, truly know the curse of the MKVII. Ever have to deal with the CCU aluminum housing that was so flimsy you had to use precision surveying equipment to get a replacement printed circuit card to seat correctly? Or bent pins in the zillion pin camera cables? Or trying to get ALL four Plumbicons to see the same size image in the same place, etc., etc. etc.

But when you did get all the witches, goblins, and demons exorcised they did make some pretty pictures! :)
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