Jump to content


Photo

Faux Sync Sound 16mm


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 Kirk Anderson

Kirk Anderson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Other

Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:18 PM

So, heres my idea....

I have:
1)a 16mm bolex
2) two Krasnogorsk 3s. One Bayo and one M42
*** all three are windup.***

Then I have:
1) Marantz PMD 201 Tape Recorder
2) Shure SM 58
3)Shure SM57
4)Cables to hook them up to my Marantz Tape deck.

If I had a Mic on a boom above a table scene and had my Camera wrapped in an old Parka/Makeshift Barney/Vacum box...lol

then Used a Clap board in the shot and recorded the snap and filmed the 30 seconds dialouge that it possible on my windups.

then telecined my roll and brought it into final cut along with the Audio track off My Marantz.....

Is there any chance that the dialogue and the film would be able to match well enough to be a "Faux sync sound Film"????

Has anyone attempted anything like this? or has any experience?

The Bolex and one of the K3's is actually remarkably quiet and I was thinking I could mix out any other camera noise.

I know it would take some balls and a crap load of luck to pull off, but someone has had to try to do this before me.

any ideas?
  • 0

#2 Tim Carroll

Tim Carroll
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2165 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, Illinois

Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:33 PM

Robert Rodriguez did something similar when he made El Mariachi. It can be done, though it is a real pain in the backside to sync the audio in post.

The two issues you will have, besides the camera noise, is that your Bolex and your K3 are not running crystal sync, and your tape recorder is not running crystal sync. So basically you are going to be syncing individual words almost, because even if you get your clap board synced at the beginning of the take in FCP, the film footage was not shot at a constant speed, and the audio was not recorded at a constant speed, so you may get drift all over the map.

But hey, if you got alot of time on your hands for post, give it a shot.

-Tim
  • 0

#3 Michael Ryan

Michael Ryan
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 182 posts
  • Other
  • Toronto, Canada via Huntington Beach, California

Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:19 PM

Hello Kircules,

You are correct about someone trying this already. Actually it's been done by tons of people mainly in Super 8 filmmaking.

First off, you should pick up the currect issue of SUPER 8 TODAY magazine (which can be bought at www.super8today.com). It has an interview with the co-director of the Super8 feature film SLEEP ALWAYS. Rick Palidwor explains in lots of detail how they sync'ed up the sound with a very similar idea.

It can be done, it's a bit of a pain, but certainly not impossible.

Mike
  • 0

#4 David Sweetman

David Sweetman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Student

Posted 08 June 2006 - 08:20 PM

Yeah, I did this last year. I recorded the image on 16mm with my Arri 16bl and rolled the audio to MiniDV on a GL2. The problem I had was that the audio didn't follow the video pulldown, and left me with something like 10 extra seconds of audio for every 100 minutes of video. ( i didn't have 100 minutes, but that was the ratio)

It's very possible to sync it yourself. It takes some messing around, but you can get it done. I might have to resort to this method for the film I'm shooting in July, if for some reason I can't get my old high school's DAT recorder.

Plus here's the other thing - it shaves a chunk of change off the telecine because it's cheaper to transfer MOS. So test it, and if you can pull it off without noticable flaw, and you're happy with it, and you want to put those funds somewhere else instead, go for it.
  • 0

#5 Josh Hill

Josh Hill
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • New York, NY

Posted 08 June 2006 - 09:11 PM

David,

But if you were shooting with a 16BL you had a Crystal Sync camera. While there may have been a slight drift because of the transfer, I don't think it applies at all to the problem the user is facing (which is his cameras are not sync).

When I transferred from my CP16 (after recording audio on my XL1s) I didn't have an issue with drift, though. Or perhaps my shots were simply short enough that drift was imperceptible?
  • 0

#6 David Sweetman

David Sweetman
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Student

Posted 08 June 2006 - 10:01 PM

no it's not crystal sync. Even so, I think the 16bl will generally run at a more constant speed than his cameras.

The drift I was getting was perceptible during a one-minute take. Until recently I thought it was because my camera was not crystal sync, but at a meet with this guy at the post house, I told him about it and he was like, "Oh yeah, of course, yadda yadda yadda pulldown and whatnot."
  • 0

#7 Josh Hill

Josh Hill
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • New York, NY

Posted 08 June 2006 - 10:22 PM

I was unaware they made non-crystal BLs
  • 0

#8 Sam Wells

Sam Wells
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1751 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 09 June 2006 - 04:54 PM

It's very possible to sync it yourself. It takes some messing around, but you can get it done. I might have to resort to this method for the film I'm shooting in July, if for some reason I can't get my old high school's DAT recorder.


You have to pull down the DAT recording in post also if you want to sync properly with film that's been transferred on a telecine.

-Sam
  • 0

#9 Philippe Lignieres

Philippe Lignieres
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Director

Posted 10 June 2006 - 03:36 AM

<<<<<<Is there any chance that the dialogue and the film would be able to match well enough to be a "Faux sync sound Film"????


Yes, of course, Kircules, you just have to adjust sound lenght in post to telecine lenght. In most case,adjust sound lenght cannot be heard.

With super8 which electric motor,you can clap on beginning plus end clap, it's easier.
  • 0

#10 Brian Drysdale

Brian Drysdale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5070 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 10 June 2006 - 06:17 AM

I was unaware they made non-crystal BLs


A lot of the Arri 16 BLs had an external crystal sync units attached, but without this most unit of the cameras were non crystal. The later EQ? or EL? model of the Arri 16BL had built in crystal sync.
  • 0

#11 Jan Weis

Jan Weis
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 158 posts
  • Student
  • Uppsala, Sweden

Posted 10 June 2006 - 08:01 AM

I'm facing a similar problem but I'll be using a beaulieu R16 with an electric motor. Will it hold sync under a minute of dailogue?

//Jan
  • 0

#12 Stuart McCammon

Stuart McCammon
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 139 posts
  • Producer
  • 95010

Posted 10 June 2006 - 08:23 AM

Kircules and ozzball,

Read Robert Rodriguez's book, "Rebel Without A Crew." Rent the DVD of El Mariachi and watch the Ten Minute Film School. Think about your project - are you really going to have an actor or actors talking for one minute without any kind of cuts? How much do you really need synched at one time? If your answers are needing anywhere more than a few seconds of sound synched at one time, you might want to rethink how you are going to shoot your project and/or the equipment you are going to use, because using non-synch gear to shoot a minute of dialogue sounds either mind-numbingly frustrating or unintentionally funny, depending on your perspective)
  • 0

#13 Freya Black

Freya Black
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4161 posts
  • Other
  • Went over the edge... Central Europe

Posted 10 June 2006 - 08:32 AM

Phillipe beat me to saying this, but a common S8 trick where there are fairly consistant electric motors is to slate your footage head and tails. You then record the audio on a crystal sync device such as mini disc etc, and then you can time stretch the audio to match the video in post so that the clapper lines up with the sound both at the beginning and end. Hopefully you should then find the audio would be in sync in between.

I expect this would work with a beaulieu R16 with electric motor but I'm not sure about a clockwork camera. Electric motors tend to be more consistant.

love

Freya

<<<<<<Is there any chance that the dialogue and the film would be able to match well enough to be a "Faux sync sound Film"????
Yes, of course, Kircules, you just have to adjust sound lenght in post to telecine lenght. In most case,adjust sound lenght cannot be heard.

With super8 which electric motor,you can clap on beginning plus end clap, it's easier.


  • 0

#14 Sam Wells

Sam Wells
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1751 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 10 June 2006 - 09:05 AM

If it's drififting time streatching won't neccessarily solve the problem either.

You may have to go in a chop up your sound anyway.

If you want dead on frame accurate sync

-Sam
  • 0

#15 Kirk Anderson

Kirk Anderson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Other

Posted 10 June 2006 - 08:40 PM

Yeah, I've read "Rebel without a crew", sick book and totally inspiring. Made me buy my first 16mm camera, but thanks for the input, anyone have any examples of doing this that they could post??

I'll have one in about two weeks, I'm shooting this week but i need $100 for processing at Forde. I'm waiting for my paycheck next week and I'm totally dead after buying stock.

Kirk
  • 0

#16 Stuart McCammon

Stuart McCammon
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 139 posts
  • Producer
  • 95010

Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:03 AM

Yeah, I've read "Rebel without a crew", sick book and totally inspiring. Made me buy my first 16mm camera, but thanks for the input, anyone have any examples of doing this that they could post??

I'll have one in about two weeks, I'm shooting this week but i need $100 for processing at Forde. I'm waiting for my paycheck next week and I'm totally dead after buying stock.

Kirk


In "Rebel without a Crew" and the 10 minute film schoo on the El Mariachi DVD, Robert Rodriguez discusses sound and what he had to do with it at length, might want to re-read it and watch the DVD. He also shows exactly how he shot El Mariachi, some interesting techniques)
  • 0

#17 Jan Weis

Jan Weis
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 158 posts
  • Student
  • Uppsala, Sweden

Posted 11 June 2006 - 04:51 AM

thanks for the tip,Stuart I'll order it on amazon today. I wasnt planning on using 1 minute dialogue well all accept one speach, and I have kept in mind that fact that I'll have sync problems while writing my script so its become more visual than soap opera like.

Gotta go now and order that damn book!

Thanks once again.
  • 0

#18 Andy_Alderslade

Andy_Alderslade
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1055 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London, UK

Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:05 AM

Slightly embarrased to show this (made it in under an hour!) but this was shot with K3 with audio recorded after filming on mini disc recorder, 'Rodreguize style.' Should have had a tape recorder recording a guide track while filming, because the Spanish guy couldn't remember if he said his lines correctly, which really made syncing impossilbe.

http://www.jumpcut.c...4BB1E5938C41118

but anyway it demonstrates possibilities.
  • 0

#19 Nick Mulder

Nick Mulder
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1023 posts
  • Other
  • Auckland, New Zealand

Posted 13 June 2006 - 06:00 AM

The two wind up bolex's I've used will lose ~2fps from a full wind down to the stop. The problem is that the speed loss is not linear, there is a deceleration as the friction becomes increasingly more active in the system...

Start and end slates will not give perfect results as the beginning will need more compression relative to the end (or is it less ! :huh:) - by using an integral approach the more slices you cut the sound into and compress/stretch the more accurate the final result will be, a fair amount of work in any case ...
  • 0

#20 Kirk Anderson

Kirk Anderson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Other

Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:40 AM

good deal, thanks a lot everyone and i'll post my project soon...
Also as a student using a windup and spending significantly more time in post is ok with me, because like most of the people in this forum, I have more time than money.

kirk
  • 0


Willys Widgets

Visual Products

Wooden Camera

Glidecam

CineLab

Metropolis Post

Abel Cine

rebotnix Technologies

Aerial Filmworks

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

FJS International, LLC

Opal

Ritter Battery

Technodolly

CineTape

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Paralinx LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Wooden Camera

rebotnix Technologies

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Metropolis Post

Paralinx LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Glidecam

Ritter Battery

The Slider

Visual Products

CineLab

Opal

CineTape

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Tai Audio

Willys Widgets

Abel Cine

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly